GSM IV

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Princess Flufflebutt (?) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:06 pm

Hell to the fucking yes, Madeline! :yay:
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:24 pm

Thank you, everybody.

I decided to throw caution to the wind and tell my dad as well. He said he would be behind me 100% no matter what I choose to do and that he just wants me to be happy and comfortable.

I’m still kind of in shock. This was the hardest thing I’ve ever done, and I’ve broken bones, had cysts removed, lost 100 pounds, climbed a mountain, and come close to dying a couple of times.

E for context:

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This is Emerald Lake. It sits at an elevation of 10,110 feet above sea level (so, nearly 3100 m). I was horribly overweight, out of shape and in no way prepared for what was described as an “easy” trail in July of 2016. I did it anyway to see if I could. That’s one of the main reasons Celeste is so meaningful to me.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by CorvusCaw (?) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:26 pm

You've got a lot of strength. You always have, you're just learning more about tapping into it.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:41 pm

I'm so happy that things went well for you, Madeline. Having your family in your corner will help a ton.

Thinking more about it, my parents have a lot of preconceptions about trans people and how they "normally" behave. My dad said to me that he had a hard time believing I was trans because I never "showed any signs" as a child, and didn't act the way trans people "normally" do. They have this image in their heads of an effeminate, flashy gender nonconformist, and I'm not like that. Not only have I always been a very private person, I didn't even know that trans people even existed until adulthood. And honestly, there are parts of being trans that I just don't care about, like fashion and makeup. I just want to feel comfortable in my own body, not fit what society says a woman should look/dress like. Maybe when I don't hate my body with a burning passion, then I'll feel comfortable putting on a dress. Until then, I just want my parents to understand that I'm valid even if I don't fir the stereotypes, and I'm not sure how to go about explaining it to them.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:53 am

Did you see the PFLG pamphlet that I linked? Might be worth a read, it could have some advice for that situation.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Cthulhu Inc (?) » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:11 pm

I'm pretty femenine but don't do makeup and am into archery and motorcycles and heavy metal and so on. And I never showed any signs as a child either.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:05 am

CorvusCaw wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:26 pm
You've got a lot of strength. You always have, you're just learning more about tapping into it.
I’m going to need it :-I

Re: femininity, remember that Lauren Faust quote about there not being a right way to be a girl? It applies here, too. I know less than nothing about fashion (outside of color-coordinating and not wearing white after Labor Day) or makeup, but I like painting my nails and using moisturizers. I cry at the movies, I love animals, and I’m not ashamed to love plushies, unicorns, or the color pink. I also like Black Sabbath, mecha, and action movies. If someone offers me a choice between any generic Hollywood romcom or the original RoboCop, I’m picking RoboCop every time. I showed seemingly-contradictory signs as a child, too: I was just as likely to ask for a Care Bear or a Pound Puppy as a Transformer or a superhero comic. I had a cheap knockoff fashion doll that I hid, and fiddled with the clothes, and also sent on adventures to confront the team of Darth Vader and Generic Space Guy. :-I

Cis women don’t all care about fashion or makeup, either. My mom hates it and uses as little as possible. When she was a kid, she preferred to help her dad out in the garage or in his basement workshop, and she still knows how to disassemble a carburetor. There are a lot of women, cis and trans, who feel the same way you do, PL. I still think it would help if your parents could meet another trans person, or at least know of them and their experiences.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:11 am

I've gone ahead and scheduled myself an appointment to get started on laser hair removal again. It's not covered by my insurance, but I should be able to use credit to pay for it in the short term, and I have enough money to make payments on it until I have an income again. Really, having a beard is one of my largest sources of dysphoria. I have a super obvious beard shadow even when I shave, and I hate the process of shaving itself, so this is the best solution to the problem. I only stopped the first time because of my mental breakdown that drove me off of that path. I'm much more determined this time.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by theGECK (?) » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:14 pm

I got my divorce papers in the mail. Along with not being with a partner who still doesn't remember to use correct pronouns, my name has now officially been changed.

Still in shock, to be honest. Once I get over the pain that comes from realizing that I truly don't have my partner anymore, I'll probably be excited about everything.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:55 pm

That has to be a bittersweet experience, but I know you can pull through.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:20 pm

There is a good road ahead of you. You'll do great. :flutterunsmith:
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Weird Autumn (?) » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:06 pm

On Thursday I have my second of two appointments to start with HRT, this time with the psychiatric and social work staff, so they can talk to me and sign off that I'm of sound mind or whatever. As far as I know this shouldn't be a super unpleasant or gatekeep-y experience, so hopefully it goes well. A week after that I have my follow-up, and assuming the doctor gives the OK on my blood work (I had one slightly heightened liver enzyme but I hope that won't be a problem) I can get my prescription then.

I'm going to have to have a talk with my mom about it, and I'm not really looking forward to that. All of our conversations about this have been pretty adversarial, because I think she just... doesn't understand how a person can look at the risks and the discrimination that come with being trans and still decide that being yourself is worth all of that. I don't think she understands how I could have come to that conclusion, because she has her own ideas about the person I am, and the person I want to be doesn't square with her preconceptions. I'm going to sit her down with the PFLAG pamphlet and the informed consent form from the clinic and just, try to convince her that I have thought about this, I'm not rushing into something, I am certain that this is what I want, and if she cares about me she needs to accept that I know who I am better than she does.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:24 am

That sounds like a very good plan, Autumn. Arm yourself with knowledge, and give her time to process it. Hopefully she'll come around when she sees how much this matters to you. Rooting for you a lot. :hug:
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Re: GSM IV

Post by CosmogenicLily (?) » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:08 pm

Hey everyone, I'm CosmogenicLily and thanks to some conversations with a friend, I've recently have been coming around to the idea that I might be a trans woman (or maybe some genderqueer variant). I'm still in the process of trying to figure things out at the moment, so I could be wrong about all of it, but one of those labels currently feels like it's probably in the right ballpark, so uh, nice to meet you all. :-I

Since I'm so new to this (aside from briefly wrestling with the concept for a while some 15 odd years ago), I sorta feel like I just unmoored a boat and now need to figure out where I'm sailing on the vast sea of gender identity (if anywhere; I don't feel like I can completely rule out "gender-nonconforming male", though I'm not feeling particularly pulled toward that label at the moment).

I know there's a lot of resources I can/should use to help crystalize my thought process, including personal experimentation, support groups, and therapists specializing in gender identity, and I suspect I will probably end up using most if not all of them, but right now, in these early stages, I'm just trying to keep my mind focused from running away with possibilities and to slow down and give myself a little space to think about this.

So I'd really appreciate some reading material that might help me better focus and reflect on where I might be headed if you guys have anything that really helped you out as you thought about it.

As a backgrounder for what I'm trying to find, I feel like I have a nice grasp of the basic concepts (differentiating the concepts of gender identity, gender conformance and norms, gender presentation, and how those are completely orthogonal to sexuality, and so on) from having been steeped in this sort of corner of the internet for so long, but it's still a little daunting to actually apply my knowledge and figure out what's right for me.

I'm particularly trying to figure out if I actually have a stable non-cis gender identity that I've been suppressing for years (given my earlier wrestling with the topic) or if I'm perhaps genderfluid (given my relative-indifference-towards and/or reluctance-to-give-up-the-privilege-of my masculinity), so anything that touches on the fluidity or stability of gender identity would be particularly appreciated in addition to things that might help me to generally figure out where I might fall on the whole masculine/feminine/bigender/agender spectrum.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Mir (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:18 am

First off, congrats, Cosmo. Whatever you decide, or discover, you're going to learn something about yourself.

Well, I've never come across any guides, per-say, on gender stability and how you'd recognize a fluid identity (and I suspect non-binary or gender fluid individuals might have more insight into that process than I would) but it's my understanding that it's largely a matter of how you personally feel and reflection of that.

So I'd suggest starting out with some simple experimentation in a safe environment and focusing on how you feel about them.

The best I can offer is my own personal experiences, though I don't know how helpful you'll find them.

In my case, as a trans woman who actively repressed my identity for many years, my rediscovery started with talking to a friend who was also questioning their identity.

We tried switching up pronouns. I didn't really have a preference at the time. My friend thought that was significant and suggested I look into it more.

I spoke to another friend (also a trans woman) and she suggested just trying out painting my toes since it's easy and safe and you can hide them easily.
I thought this was honestly kinda stupid. It's just painting nails, obviously it wasn't going to have any affect on me.
I was wrong. I was incredibly surprised at how excited I felt and I didn't know why. hadn't been expecting to feel anything.

I was excited but scared, worried I was just maybe over-empathizing. Scared to be right, scared to be wrong.
I was laying in bed, thinking it over and over in circles, feeling terrible.
I actually talked myself into realizing there was no way I was actually trans. I was obviously just over thinking it.
Immediately a thought popped into my head in response. "That's too bad... I wish I were a girl..."
"wait..."

That's really what did it. The simple answer for me that it boiled down to. "I wish I were a girl."
If given a choice, I'd always pick "girl." That's always how I'd been my whole life. Cis people generally don't feel disappointed they might not be trans.

Next I tried out some clothes. Another unexpected reaction. Instead of excited, this time I felt a relief. Like a pain I hadn't even realized I was in was suddenly removed. Like sitting in an uncomfortable position and you don't realize it until you move.

After that I did some more self reflecting and realized a lot of things in my life suddenly made sense. I called a local LGBT center and asked about recommendations for local therapists with trans experience.

That was more or less my process.

I don't know if any of that is relateable to you, but whatever you figure out, I hope you find your answers.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by CosmogenicLily (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:32 am

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Mir. The friend who I was talking with is actually genderfluid/genderqueer theirself, so it was really helpful to kinda come to the realizations that I've come to so far in talking with them.

(content warning: the standard litany of doubts about gender identity follow; don't read if being reminded of awkward doubts and fears about female or trans identity is harmful to your well-being)

As I mentioned, I wrestled with the concept of gender some years ago when I was a teenager, but ended up settling on mostly-male-but-probably-with-gender-nonconforming-characteristics-who-cares for the last 15 or so years in part because my thought processes at the time always ended up with me drawing a distinction between the experiences of an AFAB individual (which I wanted to experience) and the experiences of trans-womanhood (which I was less eager to deal with). And when that distinction was combined with my growing awareness of misogyny and the privileges I had as a man, as well as my strong reluctance to commit to (permanent) body modifications in pursuit of the goal of experiencing womanhood, I ended up falling back on manhood by default. Not because I wanted it per se, but because it was, if not the ideal self I might have wanted to be, at least something I didn't mind too much.

As I've passively observed other trans individuals' experiences over the past decade or so, it didn't really shake my decision process, since I grew aware of transphobia, the tendency of people to focus on the pain of the gender identity assigned to them at birth, and the implied drumbeat to transition, transition, transition. And to me, this was all far more intense than I recalled my thoughts being at the time. I still just wanted to experience and understand, I didn't (and still don't!) know if I would be comfortable committing to transitioning and modifying my body to match my gender identity (especially since I was approaching gender from an experiential point of view rather than an identitarian one). So again, though my curiosity and interest in femininity remained, it didn't really come up per se other than as a strong desire to only play female characters in pen and paper RPGs and passively allowing certain online communities to conclude that my (otherwise unstated) gender is female without making any effort to correct them.

It has only been in the past couple of weeks in talking to my friend, though, which has made me think about changing my mind. We had a couple of conversations where I eventually admitted that my inclinations were to label myself as "queer adjacent" but not necessarily queer. They then pointed out that "Hey, if you're suddenly idealizing a wedding where your chosen partner is wearing a tux like Pearl or Marlene Dietrich while you wear something dress-like (even if it was designed to avoid breaking gender norms too hard), and you're talking about being 'queer adjacent' maybe you're genderfluid like I am? Because you sound like me when I was first exploring my identity."

And so I looked up different articles on gender fluid/genderqueer identity to refresh my memory of the term (since it's always been a little vague to me) and... It started to click that maybe it was an appropriate label after all. I wasn't (and am still not) 100% convinced, but the label felt more right than wrong now.

Of course, as I started to think about this and meditate on it, I can feel my mind starting to spin away and fantasize about things: "Well, maybe I could look pretty with a little makeup to try to hide my facial hair and make it look a little more feminine, but keeping the short Beatlesesque hairstyle otherwise", "What if I just painted my toe nails?", "I wonder if leggings would be a nice way to try out some feminine outfits without committing 100% to shaving my legs". I feel pretty lucky to have a relatively femme build for a man, and I don't really see my facial structure as especially masculine, so I've occasionally looked in the mirror in the morning and sorta been able to see potential there as well that I hadn't seen before.

But all these thoughts coming almost unbidden all at once sorta get away from me and begin to make me feel awkward. Not only do I feel bothered by the fact that I was spiraling to these wild thoughts after only a week from merely researching gender fluidity and genderqueer identities, but I'm also bothered by the fact that gender play (and especially male to female gender bending) is a turn-on for me, so I can't tell if these thoughts are actually related to my identity or are just being driven by the arousal I'm feeling at the same time I'm thinking them. Likewise, if I am a trans woman, I'm lesbian as all hell, which makes it that much more difficult to determine if these ideas of gender expression I have are being driven by what I'm attracted to, or what I actually am. I've since concluded that I think there's something real about identity here based on the sorts of gender norms I do and do not meet, but all the presentational/expression stuff still seeds doubts as to my real identity.

Anyway, that's the short story of how I got to where I am right now and why I feel like I'm having to struggle a bit to figure out my actual identity. As for next steps, my friend has talked me into at least exploring the space almost exactly how you came around to it:
  • They asked me what gender, in isolation, I would identify with if I could be anything. ("A sort of soft-butch woman" like the sort of nerdy tech type with short pixie cut hair, but still okay with wearing leggings with a knee-high skirt)
  • Then they suggested I buy myself a women's flannel shirt to match that identity so I could see what I feel like when I wear it. (I've bought it, am waiting on it)
  • Then when I brought up the thought about painting toenails they exclaimed "Oh yeah! You should get a pedicure!" (So now maybe I'll do that too.)
So I have a sort of next steps in place now (including talking to people I know at work who are members of the trans group there) but I'm still trying to work to steady my thinking and focus on what, exactly, my identity is because I've sorta felt like I've been riding a roller coaster of different labels and emotionally spiralling out with respect to gender expression rather than trying to find what my identity is, and so that's why I ended up posting what I posted here.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:35 am

Lots of wonderful people in this thread can talk about this better than I can, so I just wanna say I'm really rooting for you and that I hope your journey leads you to helpful answers. From my impressions, there is no one true way to explore this stuff, so I'm glad you got a friend in your corner and that you are asking for advice, so you can be as safe as possible and not feel alone with the whirlwind of emotions.

However, one thing I wanted to comment on:
Likewise, if I am a trans woman, I'm lesbian as all hell, which makes it that much more difficult to determine if these ideas of gender expression I have are being driven by what I'm attracted to, or what I actually am.
It can absolutely be both. Again, I'm cis and thus not the person with the most clout on this matter, but this reminded me of how I came to terms with being bisexual and more openly identifying as such. For a long time, when I admired cool and tough women I rationalized it as "well duh, I wish I could be like this" and figured that's all there is to it. Over time, I realized that nah, I would like to be them but I also enjoy being with them. It's not as mutually exclusive as I told myself it was.


Generally, I think what we are interested in, how we express ourselves and how we identify ourselves are things that all can overlap in some ways or others. Your expression and your identity are likely linked in some way, and trying to start somewhere doesn't mean you are ignoring the other stuff. I hope exploring stuff will help, and that you can ultimately find labels (or even a lack thereof, who knows) that feel right.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Mir (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:17 am

So a few more things that might be relevant:

I lacked the resources and information when I was younger, and though I realized I was probably trans I didn't really understand what that meant. To rectify it in my head so I wouldn't have to dwell on it, I just decided to think of myself as "Another type of guy." Just, I didn't fit the stereotypes, so what, there's lots of those types of people out there, right?

So that sounds pretty similar to your own experiences, right?

Like, strength of feeling is such a hard thing to gauge because, looking back, in retrospect I always felt pretty strongly, but at any given time if you'd asked me I would have told you it wasn't that bad, it wasn't that strong, so I couldn't be trans, right?
That changed and developed with time and self reflection.

I do remember the whirlwind of emotion and pent up energy that came when I started questioning myself, and yeah, roller coaster is a good way to describe it.
What sorta snapped me out of it was actually my friend venting to me about a tough day at work. There she was, just living her life, and it was just such normal everyday stuff. And here I was freaking out over painting my toes. I suddenly felt so... childish making a big deal out of it. Sorta put things in perspective and made things seem more manageable.

So my advice would be to jump in and not to be afraid to really experiment.
Try on an identity. See if it fits.
Wear it for a week, if it doesn't feel right take it back to the identity store for a refund.
You are allowed to make mistakes. You are allowed to change your mind.
You said you're apprehensive about making permanent changes to your body and that's a good thing!
It means you're not gonna do anything rashly (and believe me, that's a long process anyway. generally months if not years long, Not something you can just fall into and do without thinking.)
Yeah, it can be scary and feel like you're being carried away, but that current and pressure is coming from you.
So, what's the worst that can happen?
Whether you're a cis guy who happens to be femme, or genderqueer, or gender fluid, or a trans woman, those are all good, equally valid things.
Get messy: it's nothing you can't clean up later.

Anyway, I wish you all the luck in the world at figuring this stuff out.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:40 am

All the best to you, Cosmo! I hope you find what you're looking for.

So, today is my appointment to follow up on my bloodwork and (hopefully) get started on HRT. My parents still don't seem to get it, but they're very reluctant to push the subject with me. On one hard, it's nice that they aren't opposing anything I'm doing, but on the other, they aren't making any attempts to talk to me or understand me better. And of course, I'm an awkward anxious mess, so I'm having trouble bringing up the topic myself. My sister will be coming home in a little more than a week, though, and she's probably my biggest ally in these things, so it should hopefully get better.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by BeautifulShy (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:16 pm

Perpetual Lurker wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:40 am
All the best to you, Cosmo! I hope you find what you're looking for.

So, today is my appointment to follow up on my bloodwork and (hopefully) get started on HRT. My parents still don't seem to get it, but they're very reluctant to push the subject with me. On one hard, it's nice that they aren't opposing anything I'm doing, but on the other, they aren't making any attempts to talk to me or understand me better. And of course, I'm an awkward anxious mess, so I'm having trouble bringing up the topic myself. My sister will be coming home in a little more than a week, though, and she's probably my biggest ally in these things, so it should hopefully get better.
Sometimes with parents it takes some time to come to terms with their child being trans and I find another aspect is they don't know what to ask so they keep quiet and not broach the subject. I hope things work out for you.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Weird Autumn (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:38 pm

Talking to my mom went really badly! She didn't want to read the pamphlet because "it's from a biased source that wants you to change" and insisted that I should get treated for depression first because my third grade teacher was mean to me and how can I know my own identity if I might have that third grade depression? (She read a story somewhere about a trans person with depression who said "I thought transitioning helped me but it actually just gave me something to focus on instead of being depressed and then the depression came back" and has been convinced that's what's going on with me ever since.)

so that's cool

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Re: GSM IV

Post by West Filly (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:09 pm

Agh that's ass. Feels kinda stressful to read. How you doing?
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Weird Autumn (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:04 pm

I dunno, honestly. In a weird way it's almost a relief, like okay if she's going to be like this then there's nothing I can do about it, it's not my job to make her comfortable, and I'll just have to do it on my own like I was going to anyway. She's not going to kick me out and she knows that I'm an adult and she can't stop me from making my own decisions, so if it's that's how that is it's just how it is.

Chances are she's going to read the pamphlet eventually and get mad that it's saying "you should try to support your trans loved one and not make assumptions or accusations about them" because "you tell me that you're trans and I'm supposed to just believe you and not question it!?!?" and it's just going to be exhausting and I'm not even sure if dealing with that kind of shit is worth having her acceptance or whatever. It's my life, if I have to live it without my parents, that's their loss.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Snowfire (?) » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:14 pm

I'm so sorry Autumn. That fucking sucks. :fluttersmith:
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:50 am

I'm sorry that that's how things have worked out, Autumn. Unsupportive parents suck. You're hella strong for pushing through that, though!

In other news, I got my prescription for HRT! It's funny, but actually trying to transition has been a better motivator for eating healthier and trying to get in shape than anything else I've done in my life. I gained a lot of weight after my major breakdown a few years ago, and haven't managed to lose it since. Hopefully dropping all that sugar I usually eat and taking regular walks will help me be healthier overall.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:29 am

Of course something you deeply care about is a great motivator, and I'm glad about it. Keep up the great work, PL, and if it gets hard you know where to find us :yay:
Weird Autumn wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:04 pm
It's my life, if I have to live it without my parents, that's their loss.
Having supportive family can mean the world, but I think it's also good to remember that your goal is to become independent and to live your identity in a way you can be proud of. You've made your plans and you've chosen to transition. At that point, it's up to your parents to choose too, and to hopefully choose your wellbeing over their hangups. But that's their choice. It hurts and it sucks, but you cannot force it. She might come around, she might not - Make sure you're as safe as can be in any case, and that you keep moving along your plans to do your own thing. You're valid and you're tough, and you have options.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by BeautifulShy (?) » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:34 am

I'm sorry that your mom treated you like that Autumn. What she needs to realize is that depression can stem from many sources and in some cases it has to do with the internal pain of being trans and not being able to transition while other times it is something entirely apart from being trans which in either case therapy is likely to root out what the cause is. I wish you the very best for you Autumn.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by BeautifulShy (?) » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:14 pm

So a little bit of update from my last update post. So back in January I started on a new dosage with a new OBGYN who works with hormones as well. I am taking 2 mg 3 times a day which is an increase of 2 mg of when I was on pills. I am also on 0.1 mg patches two times a week. Also on 100mg of spiro. With the estrogen mix I am actually seeing much more growth then what I had when I was on the 4 mg a day. I am actually starting to get cleavage that is more visable.

I have been looking into options for me for surgery and I do need to contact them but these are some that I am looking at, Dr. Elle Zara Ley which is in Paradise Valley here in AZ but I have to see if they take insurance. This is the most practical as far as distance. The next closest is in Los Angeles. Dr. Maurice M Garcia out of Cedars-Sanai. He does take Medicare which I may tap into but the concern is who I would stay with for recovery while in LA.I do have a few friends in LA but I will have to see if they are options. Dugi is a maybe but I have to see insurances. Dr. Geoffrey Stiller is a little bit out of my way but I do need to check insurances and travel costs to Idaho. The final one is quite a trek and is out in Philly but I do like the technique Dr. Rumer does since there isn't a requirement for electrolysis down there. So I get to contact all of them and see where I can go from here.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:02 pm

CosmogenicLily wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:32 am
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Mir. The friend who I was talking with is actually genderfluid/genderqueer theirself, so it was really helpful to kinda come to the realizations that I've come to so far in talking with them.

(content warning: the standard litany of doubts about gender identity follow; don't read if being reminded of awkward doubts and fears about female or trans identity is harmful to your well-being)

As I mentioned, I wrestled with the concept of gender some years ago when I was a teenager, but ended up settling on mostly-male-but-probably-with-gender-nonconforming-characteristics-who-cares for the last 15 or so years in part because my thought processes at the time always ended up with me drawing a distinction between the experiences of an AFAB individual (which I wanted to experience) and the experiences of trans-womanhood (which I was less eager to deal with). And when that distinction was combined with my growing awareness of misogyny and the privileges I had as a man, as well as my strong reluctance to commit to (permanent) body modifications in pursuit of the goal of experiencing womanhood, I ended up falling back on manhood by default. Not because I wanted it per se, but because it was, if not the ideal self I might have wanted to be, at least something I didn't mind too much.

As I've passively observed other trans individuals' experiences over the past decade or so, it didn't really shake my decision process, since I grew aware of transphobia, the tendency of people to focus on the pain of the gender identity assigned to them at birth, and the implied drumbeat to transition, transition, transition. And to me, this was all far more intense than I recalled my thoughts being at the time. I still just wanted to experience and understand, I didn't (and still don't!) know if I would be comfortable committing to transitioning and modifying my body to match my gender identity (especially since I was approaching gender from an experiential point of view rather than an identitarian one). So again, though my curiosity and interest in femininity remained, it didn't really come up per se other than as a strong desire to only play female characters in pen and paper RPGs and passively allowing certain online communities to conclude that my (otherwise unstated) gender is female without making any effort to correct them.

It has only been in the past couple of weeks in talking to my friend, though, which has made me think about changing my mind. We had a couple of conversations where I eventually admitted that my inclinations were to label myself as "queer adjacent" but not necessarily queer. They then pointed out that "Hey, if you're suddenly idealizing a wedding where your chosen partner is wearing a tux like Pearl or Marlene Dietrich while you wear something dress-like (even if it was designed to avoid breaking gender norms too hard), and you're talking about being 'queer adjacent' maybe you're genderfluid like I am? Because you sound like me when I was first exploring my identity."

And so I looked up different articles on gender fluid/genderqueer identity to refresh my memory of the term (since it's always been a little vague to me) and... It started to click that maybe it was an appropriate label after all. I wasn't (and am still not) 100% convinced, but the label felt more right than wrong now.

Of course, as I started to think about this and meditate on it, I can feel my mind starting to spin away and fantasize about things: "Well, maybe I could look pretty with a little makeup to try to hide my facial hair and make it look a little more feminine, but keeping the short Beatlesesque hairstyle otherwise", "What if I just painted my toe nails?", "I wonder if leggings would be a nice way to try out some feminine outfits without committing 100% to shaving my legs". I feel pretty lucky to have a relatively femme build for a man, and I don't really see my facial structure as especially masculine, so I've occasionally looked in the mirror in the morning and sorta been able to see potential there as well that I hadn't seen before.

But all these thoughts coming almost unbidden all at once sorta get away from me and begin to make me feel awkward. Not only do I feel bothered by the fact that I was spiraling to these wild thoughts after only a week from merely researching gender fluidity and genderqueer identities, but I'm also bothered by the fact that gender play (and especially male to female gender bending) is a turn-on for me, so I can't tell if these thoughts are actually related to my identity or are just being driven by the arousal I'm feeling at the same time I'm thinking them. Likewise, if I am a trans woman, I'm lesbian as all hell, which makes it that much more difficult to determine if these ideas of gender expression I have are being driven by what I'm attracted to, or what I actually am. I've since concluded that I think there's something real about identity here based on the sorts of gender norms I do and do not meet, but all the presentational/expression stuff still seeds doubts as to my real identity.

Anyway, that's the short story of how I got to where I am right now and why I feel like I'm having to struggle a bit to figure out my actual identity. As for next steps, my friend has talked me into at least exploring the space almost exactly how you came around to it:
  • They asked me what gender, in isolation, I would identify with if I could be anything. ("A sort of soft-butch woman" like the sort of nerdy tech type with short pixie cut hair, but still okay with wearing leggings with a knee-high skirt)
  • Then they suggested I buy myself a women's flannel shirt to match that identity so I could see what I feel like when I wear it. (I've bought it, am waiting on it)
  • Then when I brought up the thought about painting toenails they exclaimed "Oh yeah! You should get a pedicure!" (So now maybe I'll do that too.)
So I have a sort of next steps in place now (including talking to people I know at work who are members of the trans group there) but I'm still trying to work to steady my thinking and focus on what, exactly, my identity is because I've sorta felt like I've been riding a roller coaster of different labels and emotionally spiralling out with respect to gender expression rather than trying to find what my identity is, and so that's why I ended up posting what I posted here.
Super duper late, but one of the books I was directed to on the subject was Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. While a part of the book discusses transphobia, she also discusses her own experiences and feelings about transitioning. FWIW, she mentions the same thing about arousal that you did. My experience is different, because it’s always been an emotional response rather than a physical one, but I don’t see why that matters.

Also I like your name change :flutterunsmith:

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Re: GSM IV

Post by CosmogenicLily (?) » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:12 pm

Madeline wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:02 pm
Super duper late, but one of the books I was directed to on the subject was Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. While a part of the book discusses transphobia, she also discusses her own experiences and feelings about transitioning. FWIW, she mentions the same thing about arousal that you did. My experience is different, because it’s always been an emotional response rather than a physical one, but I don’t see why that matters.

Also I like your name change :flutterunsmith:
Ah yeah I came across her a couple days ago in my reading so I think I’ll have to check it out. (For my part, yeah, there’s an emotional component, but it’s masked a bit by arousal as well which complicates my emotional response)

And thanks, I sorta wanted something that would gently transition my identity here while not being too jarring for people who aren’t reading this thread. And Lily has a nice symbolism on top of being a nice name so, yeah, feel free to call me Cosmo or Lily as you like. It’s just a username and not something I am necessarily going to use in public, but it still feels affirming in its own way.

Anyway, since it’s been a few days, an update: I’ve been reading a bit and started a notebook to organize my thoughts and feelings. I’ve also connected with a supportive coworker who has helped me start talking through this (and offer a safe space for identity experimentation) as well.

I’m going to meet people from the larger support group at work on Monday, but in the meanwhile, my coworker and her wife have offered to accompany me when I go clothes shopping for the first time tomorrow, so a lot to look forward to! :allears:

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:44 pm

Have lots of fun shopping for clothes! I hope you find something you like :allears:

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Re: GSM IV

Post by CorvusCaw (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:09 am

BeautifulShy wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:14 pm
Dr. Maurice M Garcia out of Cedars-Sanai. He does take Medicare which I may tap into but the concern is who I would stay with for recovery while in LA.I do have a few friends in LA but I will have to see if they are options. Dugi is a maybe but I have to see insurances. Dr. Geoffrey Stiller is a little bit out of my way but I do need to check insurances and travel costs to Idaho. The final one is quite a trek and is out in Philly but I do like the technique Dr. Rumer does since there isn't a requirement for electrolysis down there. So I get to contact all of them and see where I can go from here.
Stiller did mine. It's great. Idaho is inexpensive compared to L.A. but there's no airport near it; I was there 20 days and spent under $1200 on my hotel. He was trained by Garcia, who is also on your list.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:14 am

CorvusCaw wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:09 am
Stiller did mine. It's great. Idaho is inexpensive compared to L.A. but there's no airport near it; I was there 20 days and spent under $1200 on my hotel. He was trained by Garcia, who is also on your list.
How is your recovery going? If it’s okay to ask. :sheepish:

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Re: GSM IV

Post by CorvusCaw (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:37 am

Madeline wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:14 am
How is your recovery going? If it’s okay to ask. :sheepish:
School starts on Wednesday, and I think I'm gonna be ready. I moved up a dilator size recently and haven't had any issues. There's some additional aspects of this that I've found exciting but won't broadcast to the general public here.

I've gained some weight this summer from not being able to exercise or prepare healthy meals post-op, so I had to order some new clothes for work, temporarily. Once I'm cleared to exercise again, I can fix that.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:45 am

My family don’t actually accept ho I am, they won’t read the pamphlet, and I’m giving up. I got a brief taste of what it’s like to be independent in college and I’ll never have that again. I’m so afraid of failing that, paradoxically, it’s all I ever do. Erica said it herself, there is no way I can succeed without having people in my corner. In real life, there isn’t anybody in my corner. I’m not allowed to be sad or do anything because it might make my mom worse. I don’t matter. I’m not going to be able to turn it around on my own. How would a therapist even be able to do anything by themselves? This is America. I can’t get a job. I can’t even get on disability even though I’m obviously super fucked in the head. If you don’t have money, or come from money, you’re fucked. And no, I can’t go to a shelter because I’m a man, and men don’t get to go to shelters.

Nobody’s going to help me, I can’t even get a job in a call center or as a janitor or groundskeeper, and the only thing I’m remotely good at hurts me to do and I hate doing it. I’m sorry for wasting everybody’s time. Stop investing in me. You’re all going to be happy and successful in life and all I’m ever going to do is constantly complain and feel bad for myself. I don’t even dare to kill myself because I’m pretty sure I’d fuck that up too and ruin more lives than my own in the process. So I’ll be out there, existing somewhere. It’s best for people not to think about it.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Madeline (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:57 am

Like, she’s sitting there having some kind of seizure or something right in front of me, I’m holding her hand, and she calls me “my guy.” How am I supposed to tell her how much that hurts me without sounding like the biggest, most selfish tool in the world? You can’t do it. You literally cannot do it.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by CosmogenicLily (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:18 am

Madeline, I can understand how it could be really rough if you're doing it on your own and lack family support (Fake edit: let alone having to support your family who doesn't accept you). It's one of the reasons I shied away from tackling my identity the first time I sorta realized who I was. I was still in high school then and living with my parents, and since I was becoming aware of my sexuality at the same time I just rationalized away my identity away as "oh, well, I guess there's nothing I can do about this and I should just live like this." I didn't have the support network I needed to succeed, and so I didn't do anything about it.

Since then I've been able to grow as a human being and tackle this again on my own terms, which I'm really happy about but it doesn't mean I don't regret not coming to terms with my identity when I could have. From my own experience, I want people like you and me to come to their identity when they realize it, rather than having to stress out and suppress it for years like I did, because pushing it down only seems to be a negative. So yes, I absolutely care about you, personally, Madeline, and I want you to succeed.

On the topic of a therapist, I can't speak to gender identity therapists (yet), but I can speak to normal CBT therapy treatments, and while I agree that a therapist can't do anything by themselves, that's only because therapy is a two-way street. You can only get what you want out of therapy what you put in. If you if you are willing to engage with your emotions and mental state honestly and put in the effort of practice (and, I hate to say it, but if you find the right therapist), it can do wonders.

Don't be afraid of therapy. Even if the first therapist is a bust and isn't a good fit, keep looking. I'm sure you will be able to find one that works. It's super daunting to really tackle the idea because this shit is so insidious that it actively prevents you from finding the care you need. In my case with my CBT therapist, I put it off for years, but I never started feeling better until I actually did it.

Above all, though, you should always remember that you absolutely matter, not only to us, on the internet, who want to help you and see you succeed, but to yourself. You know what your identity is, and it can be painful when people you know, trust, and who depend on you, aren't willing to accept it. That is not your fault. That's theirs. Don't let other people define who you are.

Coming back to my first point though, I only wish I could be more help in suggesting ways to build that real life network of support you feel you lack. I'll defer to others on how they managed to build their support networks, since it really does depend on where you are, what you do, and who you know. Everyone starts in a different place, and so they way to build their real life support networks are different.

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Re: GSM IV

Post by Princess Flufflebutt (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:20 pm

Is there an LGBT group you can meet up with? Or an exclusively trans one? That's worth looking into if you can. You do matter to me and I'm not gonna give up on you!
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Re: GSM IV

Post by CorvusCaw (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:20 pm

You're twisting my words. That isn't what they meant.
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Re: GSM IV

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:35 pm

If you're hopeless, does that make me hopeless too? We have very similar situations in terms of real life support, but you wouldn't tell me to give up, would you? It's just as unfair to tell yourself to give up, no matter what depression tells you.

A little while back, you even posted this:
Madeline wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:20 pm
I know how this is going to sound, but despite other people having told me this for years and years, I never realized just how I sound when I talk about myself like that. If I said those things to anyone else, I’d be an abusive monster. All I do is take the ugly things other people used to,say to me and then aim them back at myself. :fluttersmith: I think I might be worse off inside than I thought I was because I still feel like I’m just being honest, even though I’m actually just being cruel.

I mean, if I said those things to another person, you would ban me, and be right to do so. I say things to myself that I would never say to another person.
You bookmarked this post, right? Please don't forget it.

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