GSM IV

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:08 pm

@Cthulu Inc: Awesome

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:37 am

Congrats, Cthulhu

How was the parade, Shy?

BeautifulShy · Post by **BeautifulShy** (?) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm

It was alright. There was some protesters there but it was more over acceptance of various different minorities that want to go to the Festival. Non Neurotypical, Handicapible people and some transgender folks as well. I did have a good time though. I forgot to bring my camera so I didn't really take any photos.

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 pm

BeautifulShy wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm
It was alright. There was some protesters there but it was more over acceptance of various different minorities that want to go to the Festival. Non Neurotypical, Handicapible people and some transgender folks as well. I did have a good time though. I forgot to bring my camera so I didn't really take any photos.

At least you had a good time

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:09 am

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:23 pm

I'm meeting with my parents on Saturday.

They want to meet alone with me, which is a pattern with them where they try to get somebody alone and then guilt/shame them into doing things their way. But I'm onto them this time.

I have a group of people coming over after they leave and we're going to have a gay old time.

Well, none of us are over 40, so probably more of a gay young time.

And for the first time ever, my wife will be the only one in the room who isn't using my correct name and pronouns. In the words of my amazing sister, "Maybe it'll finally make her really uncomfortable."

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:45 pm

I'm glad you're calling on your support system in a situation that truly needs it. I'm rooting for you, be safe and be well. As much as you can be.

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:23 am

Good luck, Geck

Angry Critter · Post by **Angry Critter** (?) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:50 pm

I'm officially Lynn now!

Just waiting for my place of birth to finalize the administration and send me a certificate so I can go to city hall and request a new passport and drivers licence...

And call around and have my name changed EVERYWHERE...

PhoolCat · Post by **PhoolCat** (?) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:07 pm

Congrats Lynn!

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:24 pm

Fuck yes Lynn!!

BeautifulShy · Post by **BeautifulShy** (?) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:51 pm

Awesome Sauce Lynn!!! I am not sure if it is different where you are Lynn but I know lots of the places where I changed my name wanted a certified copy for their records. Glad you were able to get your name changed.

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:17 am

Congrats Lynn

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** (?) » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:56 am

Congrats Lynn!

Inkie · Post by **Inkie** (?) » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:41 am

That's awesome, I'm so happy for you!!!

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Congratulations!

The thing with my parents didn't go a horrible as possible, but that was about the only positive thing. It started with an extended look through baby pictures, continued through them telling me that the studies they got from the conversion therapy person in their area shows that people are worse off after transition, and ended with them asking repeatedly if I was sure that I wasn't molested and telling me that in 20 years my body will be falling apart and I'll hate what I've done to it. At least the weather was bad, so they had to leave 2 hours early so they didn't get trapped. The bad side to that was that the weather stopped everybody from coming over except one person, so that was hard. We got to talk with my sister by Skype later in the night though, so that made a bad situation a bit better. I didn't get to experience having a room full of people make my wife uncomfortable because she won't use the word "she", so I'm going to have to engineer another time for that to happen.

The best thing that happened is that I learned that I'm stronger than I have ever been before. I can stand up for myself. I can tell my parents that I'm not going to argue religion and then stand by that. I can resist the biblical and emotional abuse that they were using and see it for what it is. 6 months ago I wasn't able to do that. I'm happier and healthier and more alive than I have ever been before. I don't have to change the decisions I make about my life because they make somebody else uncomfortable. I'm not responsible for their reactions and emotions, and I don't have to accept people's attempts to put them on me.

And about getting to 50 years old and having your body fall apart...doesn't everybody regret what they did to their body while growing up? I'm in my 30s and I'm sitting here going "20 year old me, why were you so unwilling to get medical care or exercise or eat better?"

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:29 am

I wish things had gone more the way you wanted, but it’s awesome that you were able to stand up for yourself.

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:12 pm

If anybody has good resources on rebuttals/debunkings to the 2016 paper by McHugh and Mayer published in "The New Atlantis" that doesn't insult the two of them throughout the whole thing, I'd really appreciate that.

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:39 pm

What is this paper about? Can you be a bit more specific on what you need? If this is about conversion therapy in general, I can definitely give you stuff. How do you define "insult" here, though? Conversion therapy as a concept is offensive and cruel in and of itself - If that's already insulting to anyone who supports it, then I'm not sure if my know-how goes far enough. I'm not an academic, but maybe someone else around here is or has access to more academic sources, in that case.

I'm really glad you are being true to yourself and as confident as you can be. You do not deserve any kind of neglect or abuse, not from your parents, your spouse or anyone. You are valid, and that's not a negotiable fact.

diribigal · Post by **diribigal** (?) » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:20 pm

This isn't really a direct debunking, but it/some facts from it might serve your purposes, and I think it's rather respectful of McHugh while saying the Johns Hopkins medical community disagrees and is moving forward with transgender health initiatives:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

Huffpost has a pretty-detailed debunking, but it also seems to insult the authors and harps a lot on things that don't matter to the authors and may not matter to the audience (e.g. that The New Atlantis isn't a peer reviewed journal, to which the authors say "we weren't trying to write an academic paper, just a summary for non-scientists").

Orange Fluffy Sheep · Post by **Orange Fluffy Sheep** (?) » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:25 pm

theGECK wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:12 pm
If anybody has good resources on rebuttals/debunkings to the 2016 paper by McHugh and Mayer published in "The New Atlantis" that doesn't insult the two of them throughout the whole thing, I'd really appreciate that.

Well, first it's from 2016, and more recent research shows they're wrong. Once people thought outer space was full of ether, but newer research found there was nothing. It's folly to stick to old data because we think it more comfortable. Light moves through vacuums and the biological basis for trans identity becomes clearer.

Also here's over 90 more if you want to hammer it in.

The New Atlantis is not peer reviewed. It's published by the Ethics & Public Policy Center, which is openly for Christian morality in policy. One author describes himself as a "culturally conservative religiously orthodox Catholic" and the other has stated that being transgender should be legally discouraged. These aren't unbiased scientists observing raw data objectively and reporting findings, this is like KKK members producing a report in a KKK-owned journal that black people are inferior. They have an agenda that influences the conclusion, and that means they can and will interpret data.

Also McHugh actively supports anti-trans groups. His research is baised as fuck. He can swear up and down it didn't influence the paper but, you know

it's easy to lie.

The paper claims there is no biological basis for the trans identity, but it acknowledges studies that suggest a biological basis for the trans identity. It just says those don't count, because [insert reason here]. I suspect moving the goalposts.

It uses MRIs as evidence, which, well, up top is a more recent study that shows MRIs located biological evidence. There is no ether in space.

There's this line from page 34, on the topic of epigenetics:

While genes may in this way incline a person to certain behaviors, compelling behavior directly, independently of a wide range of other factors, seems less plausible.

In looking like it accepts the role genetics play, in some part, it actually completely dismisses genetics as a causal factor. This is frankly irresponsible, to suggest that because the factors are complex and not readily explained, they must not exist. This is intellectually dishonest.

An intellectually dishonest paper is a bad one. I could make a paper published in a fancy-looking journal that trans people are rad (this is a valid abstract I swear) but if I ignored this data that it has strong biological factors then I'd be just as full of shit.

But at least I wouldn't be sponsoring hate groups, eh?

"[T]he idea that sexual abuse may be a causal factor in sexual orientation remains speculative" is a fuckin handwave, it's a weakass statement to hang fucked up questions at one's child that negate the validity of said child's feelings on. It's admitting there's nothing hard there. I can speculate people are trans because Venus, the Roman goddess, shot rays. I can speculate further when evidence shows that I'm full of shit, these rays don't exist, and Venus doesn't either. Speculation is not proof.

Also kids can totally have gender identity as wee totsm around the time the brain starts being able to form memories. Good job repressing memories that you didn't even have due to the brain's inability to form them, I guess?

They also reject the minority stress effect:

with more weakass speculation that maybe there are more causes? They don't have conclusions. They don't have data. They speculate. Then sponsor hate groups.

A ton of major organizations disagree with their conclusions.

Basically, it's a lot of vague mumbling about things being complex and speculative and should not be taken as hard proof of anything but that the authors are kind of bad at making a strong point.

E: Even this ended up getting more hostile as I went on, it's hard not to when they're so bad at being scientists and people parade this mush of self-admitted speculation as evidence.

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:47 pm

Those are two super good posts, thanks for delivering.

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:40 pm

I just want to chime in with a side point and say that someone who found such a research paper to present you with may have been searching specifically for a "scientific basis" to support their own hopes about transgender identity rather than engaging in a completely honest search for facts. If this is the case, showing the truth and the evidence against the paper they found doesn't address whatever was happening in their mind when they started looking for it.

PhoolCat · Post by **PhoolCat** (?) » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:37 am

Just chiming in to back you up with personal anecdotal evidence as a 50+ year old cis body owner to say it's p much falling apart and I do indeed regret what I did to my body while growing up.

Angry Critter · Post by **Angry Critter** (?) » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:42 pm

Great post OFS, but holy shit did it hit close to home

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:18 am

It's ok everybody I don't need any more information because I just got a cell phone snapshot of a page of a book my mom was reading and it was telling me that people shouldn't ask god for signs and even if we do god can answer signs by not giving us a sign or deciding that something else was actually the sign so I'm not one of those godless queer heathens anymore I've seen the light hallelujiah praise jesus and the theotokos.

I like how they latch onto one little part of my entire life's story and decide that the one event that I said wasn't the main thing actually was the main thing because to them it would have been the main thing.

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:16 am

Are there people IRL who you can talk to? Stringing posts together from multiple threads it sounds like you're facing a lot of conflict from a lot of directions and I just wanted to ask if there's someone you can go to?

I don't need to know who or where, just wondering if there is or if not to maybe suggest contacting an organisation who supports people in your situation. I'm just worried that it might feel like you don't have any allies.

Also PRAISE THE LORD

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:29 am

Thank you for caring! I have allies all around me. It's really weird, but for some reason people think I'm a decent human being and enjoy being around me and invite me out for sushi and drinks randomly. Which calling back to another thread has caused problems with other people in my house but I have love and support from a surprisingly wide network of people in my town, one of which lives about 50m from our house which was fun to find out, and at least one family member.

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:45 am

I have a question I'm asking for a friend. She's nervous about using the label of "bisexual" for herself because she's never had sex with a woman and it's not like sex with men feels bad...and the social dynamics of it is really easy and she likes the stuff that comes with "masculinity". She just doesn't think about men sexually at all and especially doesn't fantasize about them. She finds them attractive...but etc etc etc, no need to go into all of that. She's nervous about using the label because she doesn't want to appropriate something that isn't hers to use.

I've told her yesterday that in my opinion, you don't have to have sex with somebody to know what you're attracted to, and that's what those labels are about. It's not appropriation if you're using a label that you identify with. But, she wanted to hear what others think about it so I said I would post here and ask others for their opinions.

Mir · Post by **Mir** (?) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:00 am

I mean, people call themselves "straight" all the time before they've ever had sex.
No, you absolutely don't have to try anything out before you can use a label.
She can identify in any way she wants. Even if she changes her mind later, it's her right and it hurts nobody.

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:20 am

I'm a pan man, and I think she might be coming from a different angle. I'm going to say some things that risk coming off as an asshole but I hope it makes sense.

As a pan guy it's easiest for me to make a relationship with a cis woman work. Cis women who are attracted to men are the most represented category of people that I'm generally attracted to. It's the person I'm most likely to encounter and have a relationship with purely because there's more of this kind of person around. As a separate point, there's no discrimination against such a relationship even if we'd both happen to be pan. That relationship can be effectively straight, and won't be met with disapproval by people. For that time I don't experience the anxieties that I've had on occasions where the word got out that I was with a trans woman and when the word got out I was with a man. In other words, I'm pan but a lot of the time that never comes up or impacts on me in a negative way because I'm usually single or rarely seeing a cis woman. I can hide my vested interest in the LGBT movement while taking part in a relationship that doesn't attract society's disapproval, which people who are currently with same sex or recognisably trans partners can't do.

IMO she's not saying that you need to have sex with a woman to be bi. I think she's saying she feels uncomfortable waving the LGBT flag without having experienced the issues that brought about the need for an LGBT flag in the first place. The answer to this is the same as the answer to the idea that you need to have sex: you don't need to experience discrimination to be bi or to know what that means. There is a huge "however" that needs tagging on the idea that you don't need to experience discrimination, but I can't think of how to word it so I hope you can maybe help me there.

You don't need to have any experiences to be bi, sexual or discriminatory, and experiences don't make you any more bi. Just that when the issue of discrimination comes up it's important, hugely important, but not a necessary condition of having the identity.

Perpetual Motion · Post by **Perpetual Motion** (?) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:44 pm

I know that I've felt similarly WRT my gender and sexuality. There's no way to express asexuality in a way that doesn't make me look like a straight guy who just doesn't happen to have a girlfriend. Similarly, I consider myself to be genderless, so I put zero effort into gender expression. Unfortunately, "gender neutral" defaults to "male" in our society, so I just look like a cis male.

It's kinda hard to feel like I belong in the LGBT community when I face absolutely none of the oppression or bigotry that others face in my daily life. I've learned to get over it, for the most part, but it's hard not to feel guilty every once in a while.

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 pm

Oh hi, fellow person with crippling issues of guilt over labeling yourself "bisexual"

I went through that myself and in hindsight there was really no reason to, other than thinking that there was some degree of opression necessary to be truly bisexual. That's not true. There is no degree of experience with opression or sex necessary to know what you are into and what you are not. I took a long time to grasp this and feel okay about it, but it really is true. There is no bar to hit and no Sexuality Police that makes sure you are Bi Enough.

Suffering shouldn't be the metric on which we judge if a sexuality is valid. It's not like being bisexual means you are automatically claiming resources for yourself, or pretending to have the same experiences as every other bisexual person - Everyone is still an individual and that's okay! Using a label doesn't mean you are automatically claiming to be every single part that some might associate with this label. Labels are useful, but also very limited, and cannot express the full range of someone's being in a few words. That's just how it is, and that's also okay.

I had the same worries. I worried if I was opressed enough, if I wasn't stepping on people's toes, if I was valid enough even though I was in a relationship with a man. It turns out bisexual people struggle with this issue a lot because some might feel they are not "gay enough" and others might feel they are not "straight enough". Neither is true, and some people's bitterness or misgivings don't change that.

If she feels "bisexual" might be a valid term for her, then it is. If she finds a term she likes better later, that's also fine. No amount of what's supposedly the typical LGBT experience required.

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:21 am

Pan lady here. I’ve felt guilty of claiming anything for myself in the past, even to the point of denying my own identity to myself in order to feel safer. All it did was worsen my mental health and incline me to punish myself for 4 years. It made me a more unpleasant person to be around sometimes, too. Don’t let your friend put herself through that.

It’s okay to be as straight/gay/bi/pan/asexual as you feel.

Weird Autumn · Post by **Weird Autumn** (?) » Sat May 26, 2018 12:06 pm

i finally got the nerve to send an email to the clinic about HRT aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Madeline · Post by **Madeline** (?) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:11 pm

Wooo Autumn

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am

Awesome job Autumn! Getting the ball rolling is a big deal

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon May 28, 2018 8:30 pm

Content Warning: Suicidality, transphobia

I'm not confident about being in public at the best of times. Friends have told me I "cower" when I'm out in public, and I believe them. But this whole situation has me really rattled. I've been struggling with a bad round of social anxiety and depression lately, and this is exactly what I didn't need to witness.

(?) · Post by **Perrydotto** (?) » Tue May 29, 2018 6:03 am

I'm so sorry, Momo. You truly are wonderful and you don't deserve any of this sorta bullshit from anyone, yourself or others. I'm thinking of you, and I'm rooting for you. Please keep talking to people when you can, don't be alone with these feelings and fears.

theGECK · Post by **theGECK** (?) » Tue May 29, 2018 1:18 pm

I'm sorry Momo, those are hard things to deal with. Don't just keep the feelings inside, process them however you process through things. Pace around the house, write a song, talk with friends, journal, whatever you need.

Last week, something happened that made my spouse start to rethink everything in her life and how she's interacted with things as she realized that a lot of the opinions she's said she has are really just things she grew up with that she doesn't actually have any reasons to believe and don't actually fit in with her worldview. On Saturday, she apologized to me for the way she's treated me, especially over the last three years. She told me that the way she's interacted with me and treated me has been bullshit. That she was caring more about the marriage than about the person she was married to, and how she realized that she didn't actually have the rights that she said repeatedly said that she did over my body and my life. And then she said that she can't stay married to me and we need to divorce.

Hearing all of these things has been incredibly cathartic. I've been saying for a year that she I don't see a way for her to stay married to me and I don't see a way for it work, but was willing to try anything. I thought that she was avoiding thinking about anything related to me or us or our relationship, and I was right. Over and over the things that I thought had been happening, she admitted to doing, and apologized for doing them. I can't think of a better way for our relationship to end - we both of us crying about it and trying to set the other up to have the best possible life they can have in the future.

In just a few days without my spouse attempting to slow transition down, suddenly things are happening. I'm moving forward with life. I know it's going to hurt a lot, but I think it's going to be a good life.