The ongoing fight against the alt-right

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:32 pm

Factory's scathing sarcasm might not be particularly polite, but it comes from a genuine place. The situation as a whole is beyond frustrating. The US and Europe are experiencing a massive move to the political right, with a new breed of old ideologies and reactionary horror gaining traction. Their greed and shortsighted actions harm their people and the rest of the world. It's something that affects and will affect every part of our lives, and yes, it is sadly incredibly relevant.

Erythema, I'm really not sure if you are intending this, but to me your posts make it sound like this is a distant, almost abstract problem that can be easily viewed and analyzed from a distance. Like some strategy game or hypothetical puzzle. Sadly those "flying monkeys" are very real. Whenever Donald Trump talks about one such flying monkey, people suffer. Like when he just up and said that Jerusalem is totes the capital of Israel, immediately boiling up a several decades-long conflict again. Or when his administration decided to persecute illegal immigrants on a whole new, cruel level. Or when he ignored the courts and tried to actually enact a "muslim ban". Trump and his cronies act on their disgusting, bigoted whims and real people suffer in real, often shockingly immediate ways.

And they have ideological friends all over the world. Trump happily courts literal dictators, after all. Meanwhile, the head of Germany's domestic intelligence agency makes up "fake news" style claims that footage of nazis assaulting immigrants was staged. The interior minister initially agreed, which fits his line of being a massive dick (and I mean massive). He's in good company with the likes of Italy, Malta, Austria, Sweden, and many more.

Now, if you truly want to learn more about these issues, Google is your friend and so is this thread if you have specific questions. Just please understand that if there was a nice, easily enacted strategy against the massive threat of the alt-right/whatever-right, people involved with these issues would already know and happily do it. Of course it's nice to unplug and view this from a distance, and you are absolutely right, nobody can be "on" 100 percent all the time and mental health is very important. We all have our own lives to deal with and individual amounts of energy to spend, after all. The crux here is that these are real issues that affect real people, and simply saying "well I cannot control it, shrug I guess" isn't an option for a lot of them. If you are willing to listen to the concerns of those affected and want to ask them how you can help, I'd say that's a great place to start. Nobody has all the answers, because the world is an incredibly complex and frustrating place, but starting somewhere by being openminded and listening to those who've been at the forefront of their particular fight is invaluable.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:38 pm

Erythema wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 am
Are the alt right still relevant at this stage? It's been a while since I've heard anything at all from them.




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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:40 pm

Oh god Comicsgate. Oh god that bullshit. Yeah that's a real thing too, and Slate is right to post it here because it really is just another iteration of the same alt-right horrors.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:41 pm

Also, absolutely do go vote in November. Left-wing enthusiasm means nothing if we don't win, and Trump should be a wake-up call that we can never take people's good graces for granted.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:57 pm

I think I'll stick to my original plan for the moment and go be a thorn on the sides of fanatics.

What alt-right youtube channels are there for me to go on the attack on?

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:02 pm

Erythema wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:57 pm
I think I'll stick to my original plan for the moment and go be a thorn on the sides of fanatics.

What alt-right youtube channels are there for me to go on the attack on?
Sorry to go all moderation on this, but I would like to put the kibosh on this right away, because I don't want any sort of promotion or honest discussion of these people and their channels. If you absolutely must, look at alt-right Reddits at your own peril, but I don't want to recommend this here in any way. Please poke the hornet's nest at your own risk.

Personally I still recommend seeking out the experiences of actual victims of the alt-right instead of the alt-right themselves. Much more valuable stuff to learn from, and much more valuable progress to be made to help people for real. Asking them how you can help is a good start.

And if you want to learn about alt-right rhetoric for whatever purpose, Alt-Right Playbook is a good video series.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:53 pm

Perrydotto wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:02 pm
Sorry to go all moderation on this, but I would like to put the kibosh on this right away, because I don't want any sort of promotion or honest discussion of these people and their channels. If you absolutely must, look at alt-right Reddits at your own peril, but I don't want to recommend this here in any way. Please poke the hornet's nest at your own risk.

Personally I still recommend seeking out the experiences of actual victims of the alt-right instead of the alt-right themselves. Much more valuable stuff to learn from, and much more valuable progress to be made to help people for real. Asking them how you can help is a good start.

And if you want to learn about alt-right rhetoric for whatever purpose, Alt-Right Playbook is a good video series.
I best get a look of that video playlist before I take the fight to them. And yes, poking the hornet's nest is exactly what I intend on doing. I know how to take heat so don't worry about me.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:54 pm

I'm not worrying about you, I'm questioning the value of this whole endeavour. But you do you, I guess.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:08 pm

Perrydotto wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:40 pm
Oh god Comicsgate. Oh god that bullshit. Yeah that's a real thing too, and Slate is right to post it here because it really is just another iteration of the same alt-right horrors.
The only consolation I can say about Comicsgate is that majority of the comic professionals are against it. And knowing that no legit publisher worth their salt will ever hire EVS again because he's too toxic to the brand.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Pocket (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:58 pm

Which is more than could be said for Gamergate, which never got so much as a token message of condemnation from any of the major players. Just journalism outlets and indies, which was pointless at best since attacking games journalists and claiming they were in bed with indie devs (sometimes literally) was their whole angle to start with.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:06 am

So, I have something interesting to report.

White supremacists work under the presupposition that "whites" are united or a kind of monolith when it very clearly isn't. I could use this to get them to cannibalize themselves. History is rife with whites discriminating, subjugating and massacring other whites with WWI, WWII and the more recent Yugoslav Wars being being the most salient examples I can think of. The point I'm stressing to them is that without some non-white common enemy, they'll inevitably turn on each other and they don't want that, do they?

It's bizarre, really. They're putting up this façade of selective egalitarianism between "whites." That may or may not be what draws in naïve individuals. If I can eviscerate that façade, this could make alt-righters feel threatened among themselves.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am

If racism were some kind of death star with a simple fatal design flaw, don't you think we would have flown the trench run already?

Also where I live it isn't "white ism" it's "nationalism". The British racists have been able to hate the Irish whites and the Polish whites for centuries without imploding. What's more, they're willing to accept people as British purely on how much they're willing to support the racism/nationalism/xenophobia whatever you want to call it. They'd even happily welcome a black muslim so long as they said "as a muslim, muslims bad we gotta stop bad muslims". The idea that applying logic to a racist would make the movement turn on itself or crumble like a house of cards is just wishful thinking.

The only solution I can think of is a long grind of gathering great numbers to actively and relentlessly oppose the activities of the alt right. When I say long grind, I mean it won't be done by the time I'm dead. Like fat in your body or the tides of depression in a chemically imbalanced mind, this movement isn't something that society can be cured of forever to a point where you can stop working on it. No, like the muscles of our body, civil liberties are something we need to continually exercise in order to strengthen them.

We need to continually challenge racist views in the people around us. We need to continually remind people of what a world looks like without the rights we now enjoy. We need to continually press the government to maintain the policies that protect everyone. When we've got to a good place, we'll have to continue doing these things to maintain that position.

I'd love to be proven wrong and for there to be a smart thing we could say to pwn the racists forever. I'd love to be proven wrong and for there to be some underhanded thing we could set off that'd cause the alt right to eat itself alive. Until I'm proven wrong, my position is that the one thing we need to do is sustained activism... ...forever.
Last edited by West Filly on Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:42 pm

Hm, white-ism is the beast I'm confronting at the moment. This might prove to be a low-hanging fruit. That and I think we can agree that white-ism is more dangerous than nationalism.

Nationalism, however, is a very different beast.
West Filly wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am
They'd even happily welcome a black muslim so long as they said "as a muslim, muslims bad we gotta stop bad muslims".
They way you phrased it, it sounds like "bad muslims" are only "bad" once they've done something wrong. What I think you meant to say was that muslims are getting persecuted in the UK regardless of if they've done anything wrong.
West Filly wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am
The idea that applying logic to a racist would make the movement turn on itself or crumble like a house of cards is just wishful thinking.
Won't stop me from trying. I might actually learn a thing or two doing it. Additionally, "internal logic" would be more consistent with this entire attempt. This is all about using their own dogma against them as that is all they'll ever listen to.

I might have an idea about tackling National Exceptionalism as I do have quite a bit of experience pushing back US Exceptionalism. :ponder:

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:45 pm

I'm saying that the racists in society will support a specific muslim if said muslim is willing to support the racist views they have, which would include persecuting muslims for no reason.

After all, the idea of a "bad muslim" isn't based on truth at all. It's just how the racists rationalise the fact that they're supportive of allied muslims but not others. Said supportive muslim would be racist too in adopting this worldview.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:05 pm

Alright, I think I can start to give an example of how to get under right-wingers' skins. The topic at hand was about gun control. Instead of the futile attempt of convincing them to adopt stricter gun control, I thought I'd use it as an opportunity to hurt their national pride.

Image

Sources:
*Calling it the El Salvador of the developed world would be stretching it just a bit as that title belongs to Russia.
*The USA is ranked 11th in GDP per Capita (IMF 2017) but outmurders most of Europe save for Lithuania and Russia. Most European countries have homicide rates below 4.0 per 100,000 inhabitants save for Latvia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Russia.

The USA is a very easy target because it makes some very big claims to being number one. I may have dodged the issue of gun control there but in exchange, I did something that hurt them more: framing their culture and people as relatively savage, as something other developed nations look down on. Juxtaposing them with Chile really was pouring salt in the wound.

One thing to glean from this is that elitism can be fought with elitism. I'm starting to wonder if everyone's an egalitarian when they find themselves at the receiving end of elitism. Giving them a dose of their own medicine is what this basically is. The irony certainly isn't lost on me. You'd think that strong believers of hierarchies would be humble about being outmatched. :-/

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:28 pm

There'd be less murderers if we got rid of the immigrants and brown people.

- the right, probably.

Our deranged people shoot a lot of people at once and inflate the figure. It's because good people don't have guns and the police aren't military enough! Now if the teacher had a gun and stopped the deranged people before the figure got inflated, the figure wouldn't be so high!

-the right, probably.

How would that figure be if we weren't on the border of MEXICO? Know what I mean.

-the right, probably.

How about I just make an argument that supports what I think the people around me will get behind even if it doesn't make sense. because it only needs to make sense in my heart and not in your silly logic and if you don't get that then you're not a good Christian. Hey maybe instead of thinking of one myself I'll just go to people who I devoutly believe are trustworthy like FOX NEWS and get their argument and show you that even if you already smarted it.

-the right, usually.

to put it in actual words, this isn't a movement you can "pwn" with fat logic. If you somehow corner them completely they'll just attack you directly and then everything you said will be trash. The concept of ad hominem being a logical fallacy only applies to them when it's convenient to them. This isn't a mediated sit down debate at Oxford university. This is a torches and pitchfork movement. You need to abandon the fantasy of being able to come up with a fast quip that wins the day, and join the new fantasy: punching a nazi. Punching many nazis. A superhero who in WW2 rises up from Africa and punches all of Europe, America and Asia for being shitheads, especially the nazis.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:51 pm

To be clear, I'm playing along in this hypothetical scenario as if someone actually gave me such answers just for demonstration purposes. This isn't actually directed at you. I hope we're clear on this from the get-go so there won't be any misunderstanding.
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:28 pm
There'd be less murderers if we got rid of the immigrants and brown people.

- the right, probably

Our deranged people shoot a lot of people at once and inflate the figure. It's because good people don't have guns and the police aren't military enough! Now if the teacher had a gun and stopped the deranged people before the figure got inflated, the figure wouldn't be so high!

-the right, probably.
You're probably talking about immigrants coming from the southern border. It's a pretty simple equation, Mexico is in a deplorable state but the USA isn't. But let's face facts here, Mexico sets the bar low -- very low. The fact this is happening at all is a real honor, actually. These people are risking life and limb to immigrate because the see the country as this promised land, as paradise. However, this has started to change as net immigration to Mexico has hit negative as of late and it's pretty clear what this means: the USA just isn't ****ing worth it. I gotta say, getting Mexico to prefer to live in their own country riddled with corruption, poverty and violence is quite an achievement in and of itself. It's one thing for Canadians and Europeans to be reluctant to immirate to the US but to be a disappointment to Mexicans? Way to go. :smirk:

And really? If guns = peace then Canadians and Europeans must be walking mechs! :lol:
Many countries in Europe have half the USA's homicide rates. Iceland has one of the lowest homicide rates on Earth even though gun ownership is high. You want to know what's even funnier about it? Even before Iceland passed laws to make handguns harder to obtain, demand was already quite low. The thing is, Icelander simply hold different attitudes towards guns. Most guns are rifles for recreational purposes. If you told an Icelander that you keep guns in the house for self-defense as something that's culturally endemic, they might look at you as if you were some kind of rabid animal.
Are you sure Mad Max is a just a movie and not a documentary of the US way of life? :smirk:
Face facts: you people are just more violent. If people from the USA started flooding my country, I too would be worried about homicide rates going up.

---

How was that?

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm

You mean Mexicans aren't coming here because GLORIOUS TRUMP'S POLICIES ARE WORKING. Good RIDDANCE!

Get them all out and the homicide rate will hit the floor I promise you!
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm

although in truth by now you will have been identified as a "libtard" and people will have stopped listening altogether.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:57 pm

I see we're continuing this example. I'm putting this here for good measure's sake.
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm
You mean Mexicans aren't coming here because GLORIOUS TRUMP'S POLICIES ARE WORKING. Good RIDDANCE!
(Surprisingly enough, I've never ever gotten such a response. It's mostly been "**** you" and some very desperate arguments to justify their ghastly homicide rates relative to Canada and Europe. Conservatives do not take kindly to their country and culture being insulted. Citing high population figures is a favorite argument but Russia's homicide rates are much higher despite having a much smaller population.)

Have you been living under a rock? Net immigration of Mexicans going negative happened during the Obama administration.
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm
Get them all out and the homicide rate will hit the floor I promise you!
Throughout most of US modern history, homicide rates have gone up during Republican administrations but mostly go down under Democrats. That's partly to do with the fact that economic recessions start under Republican administrations. See here:

Image
See that precipitous drop that happened between 1992 and 2000? Tell me, who was president during those years? :smirk:
All while the Hispanic population only continued to grow steadily!

Image

Looks like that scapegoat failed miserably. Got some other pre-chewed slop of an argument you could regurgitate from that foul orifice you call a mouth? :cheese:
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm
although in truth by now you will have been identified as a "libtard" and people will have stopped listening altogether.
For that my usual answer is along the lines of: "Hah! Spoken like desperate dog that's clearly run out of tricks! To think I've reduced you to this with so little effort. I didn't even get to warm up either. Oh well. Hopefully my next opponent will turn out to be less of a scrub than you."

---

Yeah. The overall idea is to turn it into a performance. Projecting dominance is very important and condescension does that pretty well. It's as I said earlier, fight elitism with elitism. It is consistent with that point made in that Alt Right Playbook video: never play defense.

Everything learned here was through trial-and-error. I altogether gave up trying to change my minds so instead, the question became: "what will break their blackened hearts?" Aside from condescension, another thing I might try is to try and instill hopelessness in them. This usually takes me hours reading their posts to find something in the subtext that might hint at something that would hurt them if I said it out loud.

That reminds me. You want to know what else really gets under their skin? This: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cbt_ZzEUUAAsYRA.jpg

Yes, that's a Trump-Hillary face merger. Insinuating that Trump is in any way equivalent to Hillary Clinton can really cut through bone and for good reason: it's a blind spot. This is particularly effective in cases where Trump fulfills Hillary's promises. In such cases, they would have to defend Trump by giving Hillary credit. Do you best to force them to have it sink in.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Jill (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:04 pm

West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm
people will have stopped listening altogether.
This, every time.

To people on the american right, it's all about generating the most white (heh) noise so that truth cannot be spoken to power. You can think of it like a cult with its own belief system that supersedes any provable fact, statistic, science, and the like. All they will ever do is insist that you consider their arguments and data points while refusing to extend you the same courtesy, because any evidence you may have is obviously tainted by some liberal agenda shilling.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:30 pm

Edit: too many words and not enough point. Just keep doing what you're doing I don't think it'll make anything any worse.
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