The ongoing fight against the alt-right

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:32 pm

Factory's scathing sarcasm might not be particularly polite, but it comes from a genuine place. The situation as a whole is beyond frustrating. The US and Europe are experiencing a massive move to the political right, with a new breed of old ideologies and reactionary horror gaining traction. Their greed and shortsighted actions harm their people and the rest of the world. It's something that affects and will affect every part of our lives, and yes, it is sadly incredibly relevant.

Erythema, I'm really not sure if you are intending this, but to me your posts make it sound like this is a distant, almost abstract problem that can be easily viewed and analyzed from a distance. Like some strategy game or hypothetical puzzle. Sadly those "flying monkeys" are very real. Whenever Donald Trump talks about one such flying monkey, people suffer. Like when he just up and said that Jerusalem is totes the capital of Israel, immediately boiling up a several decades-long conflict again. Or when his administration decided to persecute illegal immigrants on a whole new, cruel level. Or when he ignored the courts and tried to actually enact a "muslim ban". Trump and his cronies act on their disgusting, bigoted whims and real people suffer in real, often shockingly immediate ways.

And they have ideological friends all over the world. Trump happily courts literal dictators, after all. Meanwhile, the head of Germany's domestic intelligence agency makes up "fake news" style claims that footage of nazis assaulting immigrants was staged. The interior minister initially agreed, which fits his line of being a massive dick (and I mean massive). He's in good company with the likes of Italy, Malta, Austria, Sweden, and many more.

Now, if you truly want to learn more about these issues, Google is your friend and so is this thread if you have specific questions. Just please understand that if there was a nice, easily enacted strategy against the massive threat of the alt-right/whatever-right, people involved with these issues would already know and happily do it. Of course it's nice to unplug and view this from a distance, and you are absolutely right, nobody can be "on" 100 percent all the time and mental health is very important. We all have our own lives to deal with and individual amounts of energy to spend, after all. The crux here is that these are real issues that affect real people, and simply saying "well I cannot control it, shrug I guess" isn't an option for a lot of them. If you are willing to listen to the concerns of those affected and want to ask them how you can help, I'd say that's a great place to start. Nobody has all the answers, because the world is an incredibly complex and frustrating place, but starting somewhere by being openminded and listening to those who've been at the forefront of their particular fight is invaluable.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:38 pm

Erythema wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 am
Are the alt right still relevant at this stage? It's been a while since I've heard anything at all from them.




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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:40 pm

Oh god Comicsgate. Oh god that bullshit. Yeah that's a real thing too, and Slate is right to post it here because it really is just another iteration of the same alt-right horrors.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:41 pm

Also, absolutely do go vote in November. Left-wing enthusiasm means nothing if we don't win, and Trump should be a wake-up call that we can never take people's good graces for granted.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:57 pm

I think I'll stick to my original plan for the moment and go be a thorn on the sides of fanatics.

What alt-right youtube channels are there for me to go on the attack on?

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:02 pm

Erythema wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:57 pm
I think I'll stick to my original plan for the moment and go be a thorn on the sides of fanatics.

What alt-right youtube channels are there for me to go on the attack on?
Sorry to go all moderation on this, but I would like to put the kibosh on this right away, because I don't want any sort of promotion or honest discussion of these people and their channels. If you absolutely must, look at alt-right Reddits at your own peril, but I don't want to recommend this here in any way. Please poke the hornet's nest at your own risk.

Personally I still recommend seeking out the experiences of actual victims of the alt-right instead of the alt-right themselves. Much more valuable stuff to learn from, and much more valuable progress to be made to help people for real. Asking them how you can help is a good start.

And if you want to learn about alt-right rhetoric for whatever purpose, Alt-Right Playbook is a good video series.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:53 pm

Perrydotto wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:02 pm
Sorry to go all moderation on this, but I would like to put the kibosh on this right away, because I don't want any sort of promotion or honest discussion of these people and their channels. If you absolutely must, look at alt-right Reddits at your own peril, but I don't want to recommend this here in any way. Please poke the hornet's nest at your own risk.

Personally I still recommend seeking out the experiences of actual victims of the alt-right instead of the alt-right themselves. Much more valuable stuff to learn from, and much more valuable progress to be made to help people for real. Asking them how you can help is a good start.

And if you want to learn about alt-right rhetoric for whatever purpose, Alt-Right Playbook is a good video series.
I best get a look of that video playlist before I take the fight to them. And yes, poking the hornet's nest is exactly what I intend on doing. I know how to take heat so don't worry about me.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:54 pm

I'm not worrying about you, I'm questioning the value of this whole endeavour. But you do you, I guess.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:08 pm

Perrydotto wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:40 pm
Oh god Comicsgate. Oh god that bullshit. Yeah that's a real thing too, and Slate is right to post it here because it really is just another iteration of the same alt-right horrors.
The only consolation I can say about Comicsgate is that majority of the comic professionals are against it. And knowing that no legit publisher worth their salt will ever hire EVS again because he's too toxic to the brand.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Pocket (?) » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:58 pm

Which is more than could be said for Gamergate, which never got so much as a token message of condemnation from any of the major players. Just journalism outlets and indies, which was pointless at best since attacking games journalists and claiming they were in bed with indie devs (sometimes literally) was their whole angle to start with.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:06 am

So, I have something interesting to report.

White supremacists work under the presupposition that "whites" are united or a kind of monolith when it very clearly isn't. I could use this to get them to cannibalize themselves. History is rife with whites discriminating, subjugating and massacring other whites with WWI, WWII and the more recent Yugoslav Wars being being the most salient examples I can think of. The point I'm stressing to them is that without some non-white common enemy, they'll inevitably turn on each other and they don't want that, do they?

It's bizarre, really. They're putting up this façade of selective egalitarianism between "whites." That may or may not be what draws in naïve individuals. If I can eviscerate that façade, this could make alt-righters feel threatened among themselves.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am

If racism were some kind of death star with a simple fatal design flaw, don't you think we would have flown the trench run already?

Also where I live it isn't "white ism" it's "nationalism". The British racists have been able to hate the Irish whites and the Polish whites for centuries without imploding. What's more, they're willing to accept people as British purely on how much they're willing to support the racism/nationalism/xenophobia whatever you want to call it. They'd even happily welcome a black muslim so long as they said "as a muslim, muslims bad we gotta stop bad muslims". The idea that applying logic to a racist would make the movement turn on itself or crumble like a house of cards is just wishful thinking.

The only solution I can think of is a long grind of gathering great numbers to actively and relentlessly oppose the activities of the alt right. When I say long grind, I mean it won't be done by the time I'm dead. Like fat in your body or the tides of depression in a chemically imbalanced mind, this movement isn't something that society can be cured of forever to a point where you can stop working on it. No, like the muscles of our body, civil liberties are something we need to continually exercise in order to strengthen them.

We need to continually challenge racist views in the people around us. We need to continually remind people of what a world looks like without the rights we now enjoy. We need to continually press the government to maintain the policies that protect everyone. When we've got to a good place, we'll have to continue doing these things to maintain that position.

I'd love to be proven wrong and for there to be a smart thing we could say to pwn the racists forever. I'd love to be proven wrong and for there to be some underhanded thing we could set off that'd cause the alt right to eat itself alive. Until I'm proven wrong, my position is that the one thing we need to do is sustained activism... ...forever.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:42 pm

Hm, white-ism is the beast I'm confronting at the moment. This might prove to be a low-hanging fruit. That and I think we can agree that white-ism is more dangerous than nationalism.

Nationalism, however, is a very different beast.
West Filly wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am
They'd even happily welcome a black muslim so long as they said "as a muslim, muslims bad we gotta stop bad muslims".
They way you phrased it, it sounds like "bad muslims" are only "bad" once they've done something wrong. What I think you meant to say was that muslims are getting persecuted in the UK regardless of if they've done anything wrong.
West Filly wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am
The idea that applying logic to a racist would make the movement turn on itself or crumble like a house of cards is just wishful thinking.
Won't stop me from trying. I might actually learn a thing or two doing it. Additionally, "internal logic" would be more consistent with this entire attempt. This is all about using their own dogma against them as that is all they'll ever listen to.

I might have an idea about tackling National Exceptionalism as I do have quite a bit of experience pushing back US Exceptionalism. :ponder:

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:45 pm

I'm saying that the racists in society will support a specific muslim if said muslim is willing to support the racist views they have, which would include persecuting muslims for no reason.

After all, the idea of a "bad muslim" isn't based on truth at all. It's just how the racists rationalise the fact that they're supportive of allied muslims but not others. Said supportive muslim would be racist too in adopting this worldview.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:05 pm

Alright, I think I can start to give an example of how to get under right-wingers' skins. The topic at hand was about gun control. Instead of the futile attempt of convincing them to adopt stricter gun control, I thought I'd use it as an opportunity to hurt their national pride.

Image

Sources:
*Calling it the El Salvador of the developed world would be stretching it just a bit as that title belongs to Russia.
*The USA is ranked 11th in GDP per Capita (IMF 2017) but outmurders most of Europe save for Lithuania and Russia. Most European countries have homicide rates below 4.0 per 100,000 inhabitants save for Latvia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Russia.

The USA is a very easy target because it makes some very big claims to being number one. I may have dodged the issue of gun control there but in exchange, I did something that hurt them more: framing their culture and people as relatively savage, as something other developed nations look down on. Juxtaposing them with Chile really was pouring salt in the wound.

One thing to glean from this is that elitism can be fought with elitism. I'm starting to wonder if everyone's an egalitarian when they find themselves at the receiving end of elitism. Giving them a dose of their own medicine is what this basically is. The irony certainly isn't lost on me. You'd think that strong believers of hierarchies would be humble about being outmatched. :-/

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:28 pm

There'd be less murderers if we got rid of the immigrants and brown people.

- the right, probably.

Our deranged people shoot a lot of people at once and inflate the figure. It's because good people don't have guns and the police aren't military enough! Now if the teacher had a gun and stopped the deranged people before the figure got inflated, the figure wouldn't be so high!

-the right, probably.

How would that figure be if we weren't on the border of MEXICO? Know what I mean.

-the right, probably.

How about I just make an argument that supports what I think the people around me will get behind even if it doesn't make sense. because it only needs to make sense in my heart and not in your silly logic and if you don't get that then you're not a good Christian. Hey maybe instead of thinking of one myself I'll just go to people who I devoutly believe are trustworthy like FOX NEWS and get their argument and show you that even if you already smarted it.

-the right, usually.

to put it in actual words, this isn't a movement you can "pwn" with fat logic. If you somehow corner them completely they'll just attack you directly and then everything you said will be trash. The concept of ad hominem being a logical fallacy only applies to them when it's convenient to them. This isn't a mediated sit down debate at Oxford university. This is a torches and pitchfork movement. You need to abandon the fantasy of being able to come up with a fast quip that wins the day, and join the new fantasy: punching a nazi. Punching many nazis. A superhero who in WW2 rises up from Africa and punches all of Europe, America and Asia for being shitheads, especially the nazis.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:51 pm

To be clear, I'm playing along in this hypothetical scenario as if someone actually gave me such answers just for demonstration purposes. This isn't actually directed at you. I hope we're clear on this from the get-go so there won't be any misunderstanding.
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:28 pm
There'd be less murderers if we got rid of the immigrants and brown people.

- the right, probably

Our deranged people shoot a lot of people at once and inflate the figure. It's because good people don't have guns and the police aren't military enough! Now if the teacher had a gun and stopped the deranged people before the figure got inflated, the figure wouldn't be so high!

-the right, probably.
You're probably talking about immigrants coming from the southern border. It's a pretty simple equation, Mexico is in a deplorable state but the USA isn't. But let's face facts here, Mexico sets the bar low -- very low. The fact this is happening at all is a real honor, actually. These people are risking life and limb to immigrate because the see the country as this promised land, as paradise. However, this has started to change as net immigration to Mexico has hit negative as of late and it's pretty clear what this means: the USA just isn't ****ing worth it. I gotta say, getting Mexico to prefer to live in their own country riddled with corruption, poverty and violence is quite an achievement in and of itself. It's one thing for Canadians and Europeans to be reluctant to immirate to the US but to be a disappointment to Mexicans? Way to go. :smirk:

And really? If guns = peace then Canadians and Europeans must be walking mechs! :lol:
Many countries in Europe have half the USA's homicide rates. Iceland has one of the lowest homicide rates on Earth even though gun ownership is high. You want to know what's even funnier about it? Even before Iceland passed laws to make handguns harder to obtain, demand was already quite low. The thing is, Icelander simply hold different attitudes towards guns. Most guns are rifles for recreational purposes. If you told an Icelander that you keep guns in the house for self-defense as something that's culturally endemic, they might look at you as if you were some kind of rabid animal.
Are you sure Mad Max is a just a movie and not a documentary of the US way of life? :smirk:
Face facts: you people are just more violent. If people from the USA started flooding my country, I too would be worried about homicide rates going up.

---

How was that?

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm

You mean Mexicans aren't coming here because GLORIOUS TRUMP'S POLICIES ARE WORKING. Good RIDDANCE!

Get them all out and the homicide rate will hit the floor I promise you!
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm

although in truth by now you will have been identified as a "libtard" and people will have stopped listening altogether.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Erythema (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:57 pm

I see we're continuing this example. I'm putting this here for good measure's sake.
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm
You mean Mexicans aren't coming here because GLORIOUS TRUMP'S POLICIES ARE WORKING. Good RIDDANCE!
(Surprisingly enough, I've never ever gotten such a response. It's mostly been "**** you" and some very desperate arguments to justify their ghastly homicide rates relative to Canada and Europe. Conservatives do not take kindly to their country and culture being insulted. Citing high population figures is a favorite argument but Russia's homicide rates are much higher despite having a much smaller population.)

Have you been living under a rock? Net immigration of Mexicans going negative happened during the Obama administration.
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm
Get them all out and the homicide rate will hit the floor I promise you!
Throughout most of US modern history, homicide rates have gone up during Republican administrations but mostly go down under Democrats. That's partly to do with the fact that economic recessions start under Republican administrations. See here:

Image
See that precipitous drop that happened between 1992 and 2000? Tell me, who was president during those years? :smirk:
All while the Hispanic population only continued to grow steadily!

Image

Looks like that scapegoat failed miserably. Got some other pre-chewed slop of an argument you could regurgitate from that foul orifice you call a mouth? :cheese:
West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm
although in truth by now you will have been identified as a "libtard" and people will have stopped listening altogether.
For that my usual answer is along the lines of: "Hah! Spoken like desperate dog that's clearly run out of tricks! To think I've reduced you to this with so little effort. I didn't even get to warm up either. Oh well. Hopefully my next opponent will turn out to be less of a scrub than you."

---

Yeah. The overall idea is to turn it into a performance. Projecting dominance is very important and condescension does that pretty well. It's as I said earlier, fight elitism with elitism. It is consistent with that point made in that Alt Right Playbook video: never play defense.

Everything learned here was through trial-and-error. I altogether gave up trying to change my minds so instead, the question became: "what will break their blackened hearts?" Aside from condescension, another thing I might try is to try and instill hopelessness in them. This usually takes me hours reading their posts to find something in the subtext that might hint at something that would hurt them if I said it out loud.

That reminds me. You want to know what else really gets under their skin? This: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cbt_ZzEUUAAsYRA.jpg

Yes, that's a Trump-Hillary face merger. Insinuating that Trump is in any way equivalent to Hillary Clinton can really cut through bone and for good reason: it's a blind spot. This is particularly effective in cases where Trump fulfills Hillary's promises. In such cases, they would have to defend Trump by giving Hillary credit. Do you best to force them to have it sink in.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Jill (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:04 pm

West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm
people will have stopped listening altogether.
This, every time.

To people on the american right, it's all about generating the most white (heh) noise so that truth cannot be spoken to power. You can think of it like a cult with its own belief system that supersedes any provable fact, statistic, science, and the like. All they will ever do is insist that you consider their arguments and data points while refusing to extend you the same courtesy, because any evidence you may have is obviously tainted by some liberal agenda shilling.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by West Filly (?) » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:30 pm

Edit: too many words and not enough point. Just keep doing what you're doing I don't think it'll make anything any worse.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:24 pm

There's a good podcast about the alt-right and some of the people involved, including a comic book industry veteran.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Jill (?) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:46 pm

West Filly wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:30 pm
Edit: too many words and not enough point. Just keep doing what you're doing I don't think it'll make anything any worse.
Hey this was actually a really good post that offered a crystal clear perspective on why it's so hard to change minds even when you have fact and reason on your side.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Pocket (?) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:25 pm

The latest arm of the alt-right to make the news: the "Proud Boys", who yesterday caused an incident in New York after their leader held a rally at the Republican headquarters. None of them were arrested. The people they held down and beat up were.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Pocket (?) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:24 pm


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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Strangething (?) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:33 am

You know, not too long ago, the phrase "Republican street gang" would have made a good joke. :-/
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:11 pm

Richard Spencer's wife filed for divorce, says he's been physically abusive towards her.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Pocket (?) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:46 pm

Imagine my surprise.

You'll have to, because it doesn't exist.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:41 pm

A good look at the problems of modern liberalism (especially American but I think these issues apply in a lot of places), and how the right exploits them:


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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Bremen (?) » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:06 am

Perrydotto wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:41 pm
A good look at the problems of modern liberalism (especially American but I think these issues apply in a lot of places), and how the right exploits them:


That video honestly seems like a whole lot of... I dunno, pointless complaining to me? I mean, he states that liberals can't get elected by promising ideas because the left is too fragmented, and then... blames them for not promising ideas?

Additionally I don't think his complaints that the left refuses to meet rule breaking with rule breaking is fair. I mean, if the Democrats had taken the senate, and Ginsburg died in a year, they would simply say "turnabout is fair play" and wait for the next President to be elected before holding a vote. He complains that Obama didn't just ignore the Senate and declare Garland confirmed, but that ignores that A) that wouldn't be the same level of norm breaking as the Republican senate was doing (it would have been comparable to Trump's "I can overrule the 14th amendment with an executive order", and notice how quickly he backed off that), and B) No one actually expected Trump to win the election.

Yeah, the US is on an awful reactionary streak right now, but I blame that on people actually voting for reactionary things in terrifying numbers, and a system that allows them to win with numbers that are the minority, but still far higher than they should be. Despite what the video maker says, I don't see anyone claiming democracy always produces ethical results - far from it.

It's not that I don't agree with his points to some degree - if the Democrats get a chance, I would love for them to make the Republicans eat their own norm breaking and get some kicks in while they do it - I just disagree with the premise that it's what the Democrats are doing right now and that it's what's causing the current problems.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:41 am

Bremen wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:06 am
That video honestly seems like a whole lot of... I dunno, pointless complaining to me? I mean, he states that liberals can't get elected by promising ideas because the left is too fragmented, and then... blames them for not promising ideas?
His argument is that you can unite the left, but not with pro-corporate policies that make big business donors happy, and Democrats always side with the donors. It helps that some issues (say, gay rights) have turned the corner enough for businesses to feel comfortable supporting them, which means Democrats feel comfortable supporting them (see Obama's about-face on gay rights from 2008 to 2012), but there's still a huge conflict on economic policy, which affects every aspect of working Americans' lives.

For example, Medicare for All is very popular, even with a majority of Republicans. But politicians dramatically underestimate support for left-wing policies, and the health industry doesn't want anything to cut into their profits, so Congress wrings its hands and says there's "no political will" for it.
It's not that I don't agree with his points to some degree - if the Democrats get a chance, I would love for them to make the Republicans eat their own norm breaking and get some kicks in while they do it - I just disagree with the premise that it's what the Democrats are doing right now and that it's what's causing the current problems.
Maybe I'm misreading you, but he's not saying Democrats are breaking norms. He's saying Democrats are baselessly accused of that, preemptively, by Republicans who are doing that, because they know Democrats are too terrified of the accusations to push their own narrative.

His accusations about Democrats' behavior is mostly aimed at the Obama era and Dems' failure to capitalize on the power they had, not so much anything Democrats are (not) doing now. You can sort of point to Democratic leadership saying a bunch of wishy-washy "we want to work with Trump" stuff, but there's nothing they can actually do until they have power again.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Bremen (?) » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:21 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:41 am
His argument is that you can unite the left, but not with pro-corporate policies that make big business donors happy, and Democrats always side with the donors. It helps that some issues (say, gay rights) have turned the corner enough for businesses to feel comfortable supporting them, which means Democrats feel comfortable supporting them (see Obama's about-face on gay rights from 2008 to 2012), but there's still a huge conflict on economic policy, which affects every aspect of working Americans' lives.
We apparently got very different messages out of that video. For instance "Many Democrats are terrified of taking a stand on abortion, for fear that taking a stand on a wedge issue will lose them their coalition." Donors don't really care about abortion, or gun control, or a bunch of similar issues, and I think far more democrats are willing to go against donors than this video makes it look; there's been increasing evidence lately that there's severe diminishing returns to campaign funding.
For example, Medicare for All is very popular, even with a majority of Republicans. But politicians dramatically underestimate support for left-wing policies, and the health industry doesn't want anything to cut into their profits, so Congress wrings its hands and says there's "no political will" for it.
Medicare for all has a great deal of support among the Democratic party. Not nearly 100%, but a lot of that is due to historical and popular support reasons - the ACA is still relatively new, and seeing a resurgence of popularity. But for something that was a fringe idea a few years ago, it's definitely becoming a common Democratic platform.

Ironically, I suspect the best chance of Medicare for all passing in the next few years would have been if the Republicans suceeded in their last ACA repeal effort. It was popular then, and lots of people had benefited, and I think repealing it would have resulted in a surge of Democratic popularity and a will for universal healthcare.
Maybe I'm misreading you, but he's not saying Democrats are breaking norms. He's saying Democrats are baselessly accused of that, preemptively, by Republicans who are doing that, because they know Democrats are too terrified of the accusations to push their own narrative.

His accusations about Democrats' behavior is mostly aimed at the Obama era and Dems' failure to capitalize on the power they had, not so much anything Democrats are (not) doing now. You can sort of point to Democratic leadership saying a bunch of wishy-washy "we want to work with Trump" stuff, but there's nothing they can actually do until they have power again.
My reading was he was saying "The Republicans break norms, but Democrats refuse to do so because they're committed to taking 'the high road'". Which, to a degree I'll give him - the Democrats do try to come off as the good guys, for a variety of reasons including frequently being good guys, but they're not stupid either - if the Republicans start breaking norms, Democrats aren't going to take power and just put those norms back on a pedestal while going "shame on you" to the Republicans - they're going to fight back. It's just that since the Republicans started breaking norms the Democrats haven't had the power to do anything.

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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:54 pm

Bremen wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:21 pm
We apparently got very different messages out of that video. For instance "Many Democrats are terrified of taking a stand on abortion, for fear that taking a stand on a wedge issue will lose them their coalition." Donors don't really care about abortion, or gun control, or a bunch of similar issues, and I think far more democrats are willing to go against donors than this video makes it look; there's been increasing evidence lately that there's severe diminishing returns to campaign funding.
He's not wrong that many Democrats in red states are afraid of supporting abortion. But abortion was one of the big stands Obamacare did take, and they fought for years over whether the government can require insurance plans to cover birth control, etc., until the Supreme Court settled it by deciding that companies can have religious beliefs. So Democrats who think that their coalition includes a lot of Republicans, or a lot of the mythical undecided centrist moderates, may very well fear talking about abortion, but I don't see evidence that the Democratic party at large does.

Also, for what it's worth, supporting/opposing abortion doesn't read to me as "lacking ideas" or "proposing ideas." It's a policy, I guess, but not any kind of forward motion. It's just protection of what already exists from Republican attacks. If anything, it's the odd segment out in this video.

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Medicare for all has a great deal of support among the Democratic party. Not nearly 100%, but a lot of that is due to historical and popular support reasons - the ACA is still relatively new, and seeing a resurgence of popularity. But for something that was a fringe idea a few years ago, it's definitely becoming a common Democratic platform.
I'm glad there's a coalition supporting Medicare for All in the Democratic party (which, I see, includes Keith Ellison and the fresh faces planning on running for President in 2020).

But then:
The Hill wrote:House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) said Thursday that "Medicare for All" proposals should be “evaluated” if Democrats win back the House this year, adding “it’s all on the table."

Pelosi has long backed a public option for health insurance, but has not supported going further — as many Democrats want — and setting up government-run, universal health insurance.
Vox wrote:But what do Senate Democrats want to see to fix Obamacare? On Wednesday and Thursday, I interviewed six Democratic senators and two Democratic House members to ask what the party would want at the top of their health care asks from Senate Republicans.

Some of them advanced piecemeal fixes, like additional funding to help insurers cover high-cost patients, or a new “copper plan” on the Obamacare exchanges that would allow patients to enroll in cheap plans with higher deductibles. Others rejected the premise of the question altogether, arguing that it would be foolish for Democrats to divert their attention when Senate Republicans’ bill represented such an imminent threat.
Hillary Clinton wrote:Well, I don’t know what the particulars [of Bernie Sanders' Medicare-for-All bill] are. As you might remember, during the campaign he introduced a single-payer bill every year he was in Congress — and when somebody finally read it, he couldn’t explain it and couldn’t really tell people how much it was going to cost.

[...] So I think we should be focused politically, realistically, and aspirationally on expanding, continuing the expansion of Medicaid, and going to those states that have not yet expanded it. And making the political case every day for as long as it takes.

I was in favor of a Medicare buy-in; if you start slowly moving the age down, it would make a very big difference. People’s health begins to have more problems after 55, so let’s get Medicaid down to 60 and then maybe down to 55. I am in favor of a public option, and the Democrats thought they were going to get a public option and at the very end didn’t have votes. Is that realism or aspiration? Well, at the end of the day it’s votes. And it didn’t pass.
Democratic leadership is still very cautious about any sort of health care bill. The young rabble-rousers want it, but leaders' response has been, "But it's too hard to pass!" which is the kind of quibbling over process vs. policy that the video is denouncing.

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My reading was he was saying "The Republicans break norms, but Democrats refuse to do so because they're committed to taking 'the high road'". Which, to a degree I'll give him - the Democrats do try to come off as the good guys, for a variety of reasons including frequently being good guys, but they're not stupid either - if the Republicans start breaking norms, Democrats aren't going to take power and just put those norms back on a pedestal while going "shame on you" to the Republicans - they're going to fight back. It's just that since the Republicans started breaking norms the Democrats haven't had the power to do anything.


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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:29 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:54 pm

Ughhhhhhhh. :facehoof:

Dear Democrats: If you want this, start pushing for a constitutional amendment to require it. Otherwise, it's going to be a pain for you to confirm any new justices, and as soon as Republicans take power again they'll drop it back to a simple majority and resume fast-tracking sexual predators onto the bench. The GOP does not give one flying fuck about ~*decorum*~ and neither should you anymore.
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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:48 pm

Not sure if anyone followed, but it appears that Comicsgate has all but imploded.

- Richard Meyer deleted his "Diversity and Comics" Twitter after it became apparent it would be a liability to a lawsuit he filed against Mark Waid (you can donate to Waid's gofundme page here)
- EVS announced he's "leaving" Comicsgate
- Somebody uploaded pages from Meyer's graphic novel on Twitter, which as you can imagine is a poorly-written, poorly-drawn mess full of mostly homophobic slurs yelled at random.

Combination of all that effectively disbanded Comicsgate (or rather, the ringleaders are all laying low). And I think it's safe to say EVS has all but destroyed his comics career. I doubt Marvel or DC will ever take him back, at least.


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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Pocket (?) » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:36 pm


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Re: The ongoing fight against the alt-right

Post by Strangething (?) » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:52 pm

Erik Larsen demonstrates how to deal with Comicsgate:

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