S02E10: Secret of My Excess

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Re: S02E10: Secret of My Excess

Post by Wylie (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:20 am

Headless Horse wrote:Let's also not forget what else this episode has shown us:

It's given us a glimpse into the future. Spike's future.

It's shown us what Spike will become once he grows up. Sure, if he keeps his greed in check, maybe he won't be quite the same kind of dragon as what we saw here. But some aspects of his adult form are undoubtedly set in stone, and they're not terribly pleasant things to think about. He won't talk (maybe very seldom). He'll be a loner. He'll be too big to interact with his pony friends. He'll basically be an entirely different kind of creature than he is now, and fundamentally incompatible with those ponies he thinks of as his closest friends, and who consider him one in return.

This is heavy, wrenching stuff. It's like if the show did an episode that flash-forwarded to a time when the six friends had grown apart, or were getting old and couldn't go adventuring anymore, or any number of depressing (or at least bittersweet) things. It'd be one thing if the show simply said "Oh well, Spike's a baby dragon, and that's what he'll always be, high-five". It could have left all those implications of his nature unsaid and therefore maintained plausible deniability, let the audience handle any unnecessary distressing overanalysis, and kept up the story that the ponies' world is an unchanging snapshot in time, they'll never grow old, they'll never grow apart, nothing bad will happen. It could have left well enough alone. But now it's cracked open a whole new can of worms: Spike's present state is temporary, like a tiger cub you're raising illegally in your basement. One day he'll grow up, and he won't be Spike anymore.

That's what this sweet innocent kids' show about friendship has now more or less explicitly said. Its kind of staggering.


One part of me wants to argue with you that Spike will be a baby dragon exactly as long as he's got Rarity there to give him a reason to stay selfless.

There's another part of me that says Goddamn it if Bart and Lisa Simpson can be in elementary school for 23 years then Spike can be a baby dragon at least that long.

Most of the other parts of me agree with OpFarce that Friendship Is Magic, Bitches and we won't be forced by the show to examine this any more closely than we already have.
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Post by Confounded Ponies (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:33 am

Pocket wrote:Actually, the fact that the money-holders behind this show are so much more concerned with toy sales than ratings is probably part of why the writers have been able to get away with making the show so intelligent. There are no bean-counting network executives complaining that the show isn't stupid enough to appeal to the average viewer like you'd get at, say, Fox. As long as the show still contains :ponydrugs: and the occasional product placement (TWAHLAHT SPORKLE'S BLOON, the train, buildings looking like playsets), they're free to leave the creative team to do pretty much whatever they want. I'd say the people behind the original '80s cartoon had the same idea, from the looks of things; they just had different ideas of how to take advantage of the situation (and, truth be told, those ideas were the product of their time).

In particular, neither show had to worry about ensuring that antagonist characters be given an opportunity to return, because there were never going to be toys of them anyway. So we get not only stuff like Nightmare Moon permanently turning back into little Luna and probably every villain from the original series being blasted into oblivion by the power of love, but Trixie being driven out of town and Gilda being used specifically to deliver a message about certain people being lost causes that you're better off excising from your life than trying to reform.


That's a very good point, but I still find it highly unusual that it keeps being so good. The general trend of shows like this is to just say "meh, fuck it, just shit something out, I don't care anymore". It's a wonderful change of pace from the cartoons I used to watch as a kid, and I still think we just got really lucky with the way everything has come together to build this world.
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Post by Whitenoise Poster (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:11 am

Spike growth is governed exclusively by the amount of stuff he hordes and will be baby dragon friends with ponies forever lalal can't hear you!

Anyway we all know when Spike is finally too big for ponies and has to move into a cave he'll walk out one day to find an entire city with a name that is both a pony pun and a dragon pun just outside. And also the new castle built for the main six who got turned into immortal god alicorns by the EoH.

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Post by Pink Himalayan Salt (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:23 am

Whitenoise Poster wrote:thnk u 4 readin my fanfic
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And then Twilight said "......"
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Post by Wylie (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:52 am

Confounded Ponies wrote:That's a very good point, but I still find it highly unusual that it keeps being so good. The general trend of shows like this is to just say "meh, fuck it, just shit something out, I don't care anymore". It's a wonderful change of pace from the cartoons I used to watch as a kid, and I still think we just got really lucky with the way everything has come together to build this world.


Another angle to look at this is this one: Because of the way this show is made, they can really take advantage of the larger format HD television offers. And a lot of the things we enjoy picking over are blink-and-you-miss-it quick. They're wringing every bit of magic they can out of the Flash format, which is something that was simply impossible even 5 years ago. Even if it was, most of the background detail would've been lost in the downsampling of 480i standard-def TV. (For example- the bit where Rarity's tears fall up while she's falling is barely visible in standard-def, but in HD it's obvious.) We can all reference older cartoons that were really great for their time, but they look low-rent compared to what's coming out of Studio B, especially this year as the animators really get a handle on what they can do.

They've got a system that apparently makes it easy to have fun with the end product, and they keep challenging themselves to one-up each other. It's a virtuous cycle, and the end result is the amazing animation we get each week.
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Post by itinerant nomad (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:53 am

With regards to Spike's outgrowing the show. Let's just assume FiM is being shown in close to real-time. Since dragons can nap for a century, we can assume Spike won't have trouble adventuring with ponies for another 70-80 years.

It will be a bittersweet 2,080th episode when Spike needs to take a step back and become a frequent guest character.
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Post by tdkgunghoul (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:17 am

Is it just me, or does most of the 'haha, people getting wet are funny' jokes get associated with Rarity?

LBYS, Sisterhooves Social, and now wet... Opal?
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Post by itinerant nomad (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:23 am

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Post by Pink Himalayan Salt (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:42 am

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Post by Whitenoise Poster (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:55 am

tdkgunghoul wrote:Is it just me, or does most of the 'haha, people getting wet are funny' jokes get associated with Rarity?

LBYS, Sisterhooves Social, and now wet... Opal?


This reminds me. Thanks to screen shots i very recently found out opal wears make up.

That cat wears make up.

That is very silly!
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Post by Pony Factory Factory (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:07 am

Colt Vonnegut wrote:Image

Har! The whole thing is funny, but that last panel especially made me crack up. Derpy is just so off-kilter looking.
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Post by Confounded Ponies (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:53 am

Wylie wrote:Another angle to look at this is this one: Because of the way this show is made, they can really take advantage of the larger format HD television offers. And a lot of the things we enjoy picking over are blink-and-you-miss-it quick. They're wringing every bit of magic they can out of the Flash format, which is something that was simply impossible even 5 years ago. Even if it was, most of the background detail would've been lost in the downsampling of 480i standard-def TV. (For example- the bit where Rarity's tears fall up while she's falling is barely visible in standard-def, but in HD it's obvious.) We can all reference older cartoons that were really great for their time, but they look low-rent compared to what's coming out of Studio B, especially this year as the animators really get a handle on what they can do.

They've got a system that apparently makes it easy to have fun with the end product, and they keep challenging themselves to one-up each other. It's a virtuous cycle, and the end result is the amazing animation we get each week.


That's also a great point. I completely agree.

Would you say that this is a case of the Medium being the Message? I think I would.


Also that comic is hilarious.
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Post by Scuderia Ferrarity (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:30 pm

Pony Factory Factory wrote:Har! The whole thing is funny, but that last panel especially made me crack up. Derpy is just so off-kilter looking.


Good girl Derpy, you're hitting the plot points well, just like we discussed, now we need to work on character progression.
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Post by Whitenoise Poster (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:26 pm

I just remembered something I wanted to say but forgot to say it when I thought it.

We saw Twilight light a candle with her magic. We are ever so slightly closer to the possibility of someone shooting a fireball.
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Post by Pinkemon (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:30 pm

Whitenoise Poster wrote:I just remembered something I wanted to say but forgot to say it when I thought it.

We saw Twilight light a candle with her magic. We are ever so slightly closer to the possibility of someone shooting a fireball.

Hmm. I suppose that technically, another unicorn could also use fire magic if it were to relate to a special talent that makes sense in the FiM world.

Like, a glass blower or something.

Heck, someone must have made those fancy windows in Celestia's throne room.
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Post by Mechanical Ape (?) » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:35 pm

Who needs fireball spells? Twilight could just borrow a can of Rarity's hairspray and go to town on some suckas.
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Post by The Masked Chemist (?) » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:55 pm

You need fireball spells so you can take Arcane Thesis and level countries with a single third level spell.
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Post by The Doctor (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:17 am

Re-Watching the episode, there was something sad and adorable about Scoot protecting her scooter.
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Post by In West Fillydelphia (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:50 am

I see what you did there... ...I think?
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Post by The Doctor (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:14 am

In West Fillydelphia wrote:I see what you did there... ...I think?


No hidden joke, just thought it was a really cute moment.
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Post by Artificer (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:17 am

Yeah, that was totally a dick move on Spike's part. That's like jacking a little girl's dollhouse just because.
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Post by kefkafloyd (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:20 am

That was not the thread you were looking for.

*Jedi mod trick*
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Post by Headless Horse (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:10 am

Artificer wrote:Yeah, that was totally a dick move on Spike's part. That's like jacking a little girl's dollhouse just because.


Especially since he already got a scooter. :rainbert:
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Post by The Doctor (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:19 am

Artificer wrote:Yeah, that was totally a dick move on Spike's part. That's like jacking a little girl's dollhouse just because.


He must have learned from someone how to take things from little kids... :starity:
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Post by Zuzie (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:04 am

I got the feeling that Rarity values Spike's current friendship with her as it always was and didn't want it to become awkward by having romance enter into it.
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Post by Headless Horse (?) » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:56 am

Yes. But she's still genuinely touched.

She wants him to know that she very truly appreciates him thinking about her that way, but knows that him saying it out loud will ruin it (not least because it would force an answer from her and she can't give a good one). The verbal and physical communication there (well illustrated by OFS) is a really delicate feat of timing and diplomacy.

The fact that it's taking place as they're falling to what for all they know is their death, when they have no reason to believe there's any future to ruin by getting these things out into the open, puts another whole layer of intensity on the thing.
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Post by The Doctor (?) » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:44 pm

So thanks to Spike's generosity, Rarity decided to make new capes for all her friends except Spike...
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Post by Daionus The 23rd (?) » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:58 pm

They're based on a model made for ponies. :rainbert:
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Post by numsOic (?) » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:25 pm

Spike already got Rarity's smooches. That's better than any cape. (Dragons also don't wear clothes.)
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Post by Daionus The 23rd (?) » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:00 pm

They wear about as much as the average pony! :v:
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Post by numsOic (?) » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:15 pm

Never mind; I just remembered he wore something for the Gala.

E: VV You're right, I'm really dumb.
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Post by Headless Horse (?) » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:33 pm

Spike's always wearing stuff. Mostly for gags (Spikely Whiplash, his reporter/ghost-writer attire, etc), but it goes back as far as the Little Lord Fauntleroy outfit in Ticket Master.
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Post by Cuckoo (?) » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:20 pm

I always figured, from Spike's age in relation to Twilight and from various fan pictures, that Spike would outlive all of the ponies and they'd be gone by the time he'd be an adult. Still a depressing angle, but less so than him growing/devolving into a monstrous brute right before their eyes.

That is of course if you only don't accept the greed = growth cycle as natural. Wow, I'm really vomiting out the fanon speculation today.
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Post by numsOic (?) » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:26 pm

Cuckoo wrote:That is of course if you only don't accept the greed = growth cycle as natural.

Why not? That's pretty much all we got in the show after "dragons can nap for a century". I can see domesticated dragons remaining in a state of neoteny (just like some other domesticated animals!) due to the anti-greed grooming.
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Post by Opposing Farce (?) » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:13 pm

numsOic wrote:Why not? That's pretty much all we got in the show after "dragons can nap for a century". I can see domesticated dragons remaining in a state of neoteny (just like some other domesticated animals!) due to the anti-greed grooming.

'Cause Spike being a baby forever is honestly kinda :fluttersmith: in its own way.
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Post by numsOic (?) » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:43 pm

Humans are pretty much walking and talking baby primates. He doesn't need to stay a baby forever, just look and act like one.
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Post by Headless Horse (?) » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:20 am

And since in his case "act like a baby" basically means "act like a 12-year-old kid", :pinkieshrug:
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Post by Opposing Farce (?) » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:14 am

I dunno, something about it rubs me the wrong way. Getting old and growing up is a part of life, and I just think it'd be kind of depressing if Spike had to spend the whole however-long-a-dragon-lives never growing and never changing. Besides, we already know that he naturally grew from being a teeny tiny baby lizard to the larger, more talkative Spike we know, so I don't see any reason why he would stop now.
Also being a 12-year-old kid for thousands of years sounds pretty hellish to me :rainbert:
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Post by Chaos Sonic (?) » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:45 am

Well, it could be that for dragons, physical maturity and emotional/mental maturity are completely separate.
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Post by Mechanical Ape (?) » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:50 am

Coming back to this thread, because CONSIDER THIS:

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Rarity likes Spike's gem so much, her eyes grow another catchlight.
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