Mares be doin' it for theyselves: The Feminism Thread

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Re: Mares be doin' it for theyselves: The Feminism Thread

Post by Dexanth (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:26 am

I am going to argue that the movie, from what I have read of it, may well rise to the threshold of 'His acts are wrong', but that they don't meet the bar for rape. If our bar is 'One person knows things another does not, and doesn't want to tell them', well, arguably that's true to some degree in every relationship ever.

To throw a hypothetical : X is convicted for armed robbery, serves time, gets out, goes on a date, it goes well, they have sex. Is it rape because he didn't tell her he's a felon?

The movie rises it to a different and far more uncomfortable level here, in that Chris Pratt's character is the one responsible for her being awake early and keeps that information secret, which is its own different bar.

But if you remove that one detail - that he woke her up - what then? For example, is it rape in Groundhog Day because Bill Murray's character knows the exact things to say to make Andie MacDowell's fall in love with him? He has information she doesn't, and isn't telling her, that he's lived this same day for a very, very long time. And understandably he's not telling her because hey, we'd think someone is crazy if they said they were caught in a time loop, but information asymmetry still exists there.

The difference is he's not responsible for the Groundhog Day loop, of course, but the rest of the situation could easily be held as a parallel.

The best case I can see for the rape argument is that 'She would not have given consent had she known he woke her up', but that's where the aforementioned 'X would not consent if they knew Y was an ex-con' comes into play. It's not a cut-and-dry black and white scenario at play here, and at least as the movie presents it, it's complicated by 'Main character is stuck in a life in prison in solitary confinement' scenario, where like...I don't want to defend or say anything there was right, particularly as I haven't seen the film yet, but I can understand if not agree with how people would cross boundaries in extraordinary circumstances like perpetual isolation. That doesn't make it not super creepy and wrong to inflict on someone else, at the same time.

Of course, since it's Sci-Fi, the film as written isn't really a scenario that can come to pass in the real world, so there's that too.
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Post by Perrydotto (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:45 am

Dexanth wrote:I am going to argue that the movie, from what I have read of it, may well rise to the threshold of 'His acts are wrong', but that they don't meet the bar for rape. If our bar is 'One person knows things another does not, and doesn't want to tell them', well, arguably that's true to some degree in every relationship ever.


It's not really, because it's not like he's withholding information from her that's benign. He wakes her up explicitly because he's lonely and desperate, something that could very well doom her to die sooner or later, and doesn't tell her. When you put someone's wellbeing on the line because you wanted to bone, no matter how understandable the desperation might have been, you've really fucked up.

Dexanth wrote:The best case I can see for the rape argument is that 'She would not have given consent had she known he woke her up', but that's where the aforementioned 'X would not consent if they knew Y was an ex-con' comes into play.


But that's exactly it. Again, we're talking "doing something extremely dangerous to bone" levels of deception here. He's not lying about a dark part of his past or something. He's entirely responsible for her being around to bone in the first place, and lies to her about it. You can't remove that detail, either, because it's incredibly important. It's more like luring someone to a place under false pretense and then convince them to have sex with them. It's really not on the same level as "I'm an ex-felon" at all.

Again: My issue with stories about desperate people doing desperate things isn't that they exist. My issue is when the stories refuse to call these acts for what they are, and romanticize/trivialize them. We need to be allowed to call things for what they are - in this case, rape - and make it the topic at hand when it's appropriate. I strongly encourage media to explore these depths, but not with this level of callous ignorance.
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Post by Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:47 am

Perrydotto wrote:Again: My issue with stories about desperate people doing desperate things isn't that they exist. My issue is when the stories refuse to call these acts for what they are, and romanticize/trivialize them. We need to be allowed to call things for what they are - in this case, rape - and make it the topic at hand when it's appropriate. I strongly encourage media to explore these depths, but not with this level of callous ignorance.


Yeah, to be honest it's a really good premise, it's just that the movie doesn't take it seriously enough and handles it poorly. Can't say more than that without spoiling it, though.

And yes, what he did is wrong on many different levels besides just being rape. But that wrongness is at least addressed, while the rape angle kind of isn't. Plus, there's the fact that he kinda obsesses with her and snoops through all her videos and writing like a creepy stalker until he decides she's perfect for him. Or that he never considers waking up more people, enough to build a functional society in that ship or anything. Nope, it's just her, because she's the Right One For Him and to hell with her wishes and freedom.
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Post by Bremen (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:20 pm

With the disclaimer that I haven't seen the movie, I kind of have to agree with Dexanth. Waking up a person in that situation was wrong (though, perhaps, worthy of some understanding since loneliness is a really horrible thing that can result in poor decision making). It doesn't matter if he woke up a woman with romantic intentions or a guy he just wanted someone to drink beer with (metaphorically, at least). It's highly likely to condemn them to a horrible situation for personal reasons.

However, Stockholm syndrome requires that the captor have power over the captive, and any sex in that situation has issues; that's why we tend to frown on things like a boss sleeping with their employee. But that doesn't appear to be the case here, so it doesn't sound like one can claim Stockholm syndrome or other coercion. So it's closer to what Dex said; someone who conceals something in their past that could keep someone from having sex from them, but does not coerce the sex itself.

Perrydotto wrote:
It's not really, because it's not like he's withholding information from her that's benign. He wakes her up explicitly because he's lonely and desperate, something that could very well doom her to die sooner or later, and doesn't tell her. When you put someone's wellbeing on the line because you wanted to bone, no matter how understandable the desperation might have been, you've really fucked up.


I mean, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with this. I just don't think that him waking her up is inherently worse than waking anyone else up, nor that it inherently makes their relationship rape. It's just that I think this is a case where it's hard to look in isolation at two separate acts (waking her up, and later having consensual sex with her). The first is definitely a horrible thing, but people tend to judge the second in light of the first.

Let's say, theoretically, that he broke down and told her he woke her up. Now, clearly this didn't happen, but if he did and they later had a relationship anyways, would people still say it was rape? I'm guessing no (I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get), which means to me that the problem here is the deception, not that he's the one that woke her up, and that moves it into the issue of "does refusing to divulge your past make it rape?"
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Post by Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:43 pm

There's a difference between deceit and manipulation though. Deceit is tricky, yeah. If a partner is unfaithful and doesn't reveal it to their partner for months, that doesn't turn any consensual sex they had into rape. They're just an asshole.

In this situation though, I do think it goes beyond that and into actual manipulation, which does raise the issue of consent. And the movie fails to address that in any way :pinkieshrug: There's a particularly creepy scene after she finds out where she's very clearly refusing to listen to him and avoiding him, so he gets on the PA system and delivers a long-winded apology about how he was very lonely and he's very sorry, while she can't do anything but listen.
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Post by Soft Snow (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:28 pm

When they first had sex she initiated it and it didn't seem like she was coaxed into it. Can consensual sex later be considered rape if it was under false pretense?
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Like if X and Y had sex a few times. But X had aids and didn't tell Y. Now Y has it and will eventually die because of it. Can Y claim rape because X didn't say they had aids before they had sex?

Or if a man tells a woman that he is a famous celebrity. They go back to her place to have sex. Afterwards she founds out he was lying. Did he rape her?

Or if a man has sex with a woman. That woman use to be a man and he didn't find out about it until later. Can that man claim he was raped by that woman?

Perrydotto wrote:Yeah, that's a crucial part of what "rape culture" means - It doesn't describe a culture that openly encourages rape, but rather a culture that is so careless and ignorant about rape that it indirectly encourages it, or at the very least makes people not even notice when it's happening. When people aren't sensibilized for the issue at all, they are much more prone to not acknowledging rape or taking it seriously, whether it's in fiction or reality.

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Post by Perrydotto (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:02 pm

There's a very important conversation to be had about lies by omission leading to sex that wouldn't have happened otherwise - What do we call it when someone didn't tell their partner a thing, and knowing that thing would have made them say No to the sex?

To me, at the very least, it's hugely important how dangerous the withheld information is, and how much it changes about the person to me. Would I have been in the same place and situation regardless of this information, and was I interested in this person regardless of this information? How much does not knowing the information harm me?

For example, in your AIDS scenario, that's a hugely awful thing to do to someone. Not only should they have had protected sex, but person X outrighted harmed person Y's body against their knowledge and consent. I'm no English language expert and cannot tell you if that's rape, but I'd say yes, or it's at the very least some other kind of felony. Infecting someone with a deadly illness on purpose is a crime. Not knowing the information that person X withheld was horrible for person Y, to say the least.

At the end of the day, if someone purposely and knowingly lies to you to have sex, and you wouldn't have had sex with them if they hadn't lied to you, that's rape by deception to me, yes. You can be into that person and still not be okay with what they're doing once you have the information they withheld. Ideally, consent is giving with full knowledge and enthusiasm, and a bond of trust. When someone withholds important information from you, or even lies specifically in a way to make you want to have sex with them, they are taking the ability to consent with full knowledge away from you.

That being said, it's obviously not always a clearcut situation, and not something people should use to demonize right out of the gate - The type of information that was withheld matters, and how much harm it caused. People are flawed in various degrees, and to me at least, the harmful intent and the degree of harm matter. There are many different shades to this. I can really be into someone in general and later find out something about them that does make my opinion of them worse, but doesn't change that I wanted the sex with them and enjoyed it. By the same token, I can really be into someone but it's mainly based on something they actively lied about, and finding that out changes severely how I think of them. Folks should really be honest and upfront with anyone they want to be intimate and close with, but us humans are not always ideal, smart people. It's just important to recognize that we can mean no harm and still do harm, and that we need to be able to talk about that harm without swooping it under the rug instead, or shying away from the "bad words" because they're not fun to talk about.

And well, if a movie has a protagonist who creepily obsesses about a woman while she's in cryostasis, wakes her up from the cryostasis (the very thing that keeps her alive in the longterm) entirely for his own personal gain, and then basically emotionally corners her until she has no other choice but to be with him, whether she likes him or not (just lucky that she likes him, but she's a fictional character, so it's not like she had her own choice in the first place) ... that's not something a movie should portray as a relatively easily forgivable transgression. Too many works of fiction portray this kinda thing as romantic that I'm not really keen on giving it an easy pass.
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Post by Soft Snow (?) » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:49 pm

I don't think the movie portrayed it has easily forgivable. First the guy said repetitively said it was wrong to wake her up. Then eventually became obsessed and it did anyway. After the girl found out, she was very upset about it for relatively long time. The point where she forgave him was when the ship was about to be destroyed and they had to work together to save it. Then he tried to sacrifice himself to save the ship.

The whole idea of Stockholm syndrome idea comes into play when at the end of the movie, the guy figures out how to unlock the med bay which gave her an option to go back to sleep. She declines it and decides to spend the rest of her life with him on the ship. The opinion to go back to sleep was always there for her and he wanted her to do it. So she wasn't actually trapped anymore and it became her choice to stay there.
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Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:42 am

She doesn't really have a concious, free choice when someone has Stockholm Syndrome. That's kind of the point of Stockholm Syndrome. :-P
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Post by Aramek (?) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:41 pm

Perrydotto wrote:She doesn't really have a concious, free choice when someone has Stockholm Syndrome. That's kind of the point of Stockholm Syndrome. :-P

Apply this to living in an entire world/society with certain, let's say, patriarchal values.

Are any of your choices really conscious or free?
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Post by Yarma (?) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:49 pm

Aramek wrote:Apply this to living in an entire world/society with certain, let's say, patriarchal values.

Are any of your choices really conscious or free?


Aren't you getting a little out of scope here?
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Post by In West Fillydelphia (?) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:58 pm

The deciding factor is this:

lets say someone beamed to the ship, saw what was going on, and then beamed them back to civilised society.

How does she feel now? Will there be a court date?

It's not exactly something that arrives at a truth value of whether the dude did something wrong, but it's the only practical measure in society.
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Post by Aramek (?) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:59 pm

Yarma wrote:
Aren't you getting a little out of scope here?

It speaks to inherent problems with rape culture as a whole.
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Post by Yarma (?) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:14 pm

Aramek wrote:It speaks to inherent problems with rape culture as a whole.


Care to extrapolate on this some? Not to derail the thread but i want to know what you mean.
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Post by Dexanth (?) » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:39 pm

Yarma wrote:
Care to extrapolate on this some? Not to derail the thread but i want to know what you mean.


I think what Aramek is getting at is that we are always influenced by our surroundings. Yes, she falls in love with him due to isolation. But, if we examine a regressive, authoritarian and patriarchal society like Saudi Arabia, are all relationships between men and women there inherently coercive? In Saudi society I think we'd all agree that there's a heavily patriarchal streak; does that mean if a man and woman fall in love and have both been raised and shaped by that society, the woman is being inherently taken advantage of? Are all sexual relationships in such a society inherently predatory?

Do feel free to tell me if I'm interpreting the point wrong, Aramek.
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Post by Highbrow Dash (?) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:30 am

Russia's proposal to decriminalize domestic violence earns a sweeping parliamentary victory

A bill to decriminalize domestic violence in Russia passed its first reading at the Duma, the lower house of parliament, with a near-unanimous vote. The reading will advance the amendment, making it one step closer to becoming law.

Of the 370 votes, 368 were in favor in favor of the bill. The amendment was proposed and spearheaded by the notoriously ultra-conservative MP Yelena Mizulina, who heads the Duma Committee on Family, Women and Children's Affairs. Mizulina was also the mastermind behind Russia's 2013 law banning gay "propaganda."

If the new bill becomes law, domestic violence within families would be reduced from a criminal offense to an administrative one; an abuser could resolved the issue by paying a fine, doing community service or a short prison term, according to Politico. Someone could only be criminally charged if they were found guilty of abusing a family member more than once a year.
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Post by Perrydotto (?) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:29 pm

The coverage about the Women's March makes me equal parts incredibly happy and incredibly mad - Incredibly happy because it's so freaking awesome to see so many feminists in one place, loud and proud, but also incredibly mad because I only found out today that there would have been a march in Berlin. I could have gone to that. Shit! I was a cynical asshole and assumed there wouldn't be any relevant marches outside of the US. Boy was I wrong, and I'm so glad I was wrong, but I could punch myself in the face for it, too. I really goddamn hope this will become an annual thing, at the very least. Feminism is alive and well, no matter what bullshit I see online. I need more reminders of that, I really do.

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Several places exceeded their attendance estimates by far. There were sister marches and events on all continents (!!), in more than 50 countries. That's absolutely incredible.

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This is from Berlin:

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Nothing on this stupid Earth is going to keep me from going next time.
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Post by Mr. Big (?) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:07 pm

Very happy to see this! Hope this energy can keep up in the long run.

And yes, I found out that there is a march about an hour from where I live. If I knew in advance, I would've made plans to go there.
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Post by Stuff (?) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:30 pm

I made it to the march in Vegas. It was hopeful to see everyone unified. But it was ending at that point (230 PST), so the crowd was thinning out. Plus, Downtown is confusing as heck here, so I was lost momentarily. Wish I got one of those hats.
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Post by The Doctor (?) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:05 pm

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:smirk: And that is one fabulously long scarf.
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Post by Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:17 pm

I look upon this and I am reminded of Occupy Wall Street and also of the Tea Party protests a while after Obama took office. I hope someone is able to harness the massive amount of energy seen today to turn it into an actual leftist movement, like how the Tea Partiers somehow were able to do, but without their regressive political ideas.

While I was posting a picture on Imgur earlier, here's something I saw on the front page there.
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Post by Octavia (?) » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:28 pm

An estimated 250,000 people showed up to the rally in Chicago. It was unseasonably warm at 60 F too. :allears:

Although this aerial shot makes it look like a lot more than 250,000.
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Post by Corpy (?) » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:54 am

In Seattle, they expected 30,000... the final estimate is around 175,000, including me and Wulfe. The people flooded all around the starting point, and thousands more joined along the route (including ixnay, who joined me and Wulfe for the last mile; I finally got to meet tiny human, yay!).

The route was three miles long, and by the time the front of the march reached the end, some people were still filtering out of the park onto the start of the route. A three-mile stream of people spread across a wide city street. This was my first real protest of any kind, and it was awesome.

Here's an aerial shot of the park from a news helicopter.
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Here's the panorama from where we were at in the park
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We got there two hours before the march started and the park was already filling up
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:gotcha:
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Post by Corpy (?) » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:11 am

also there were bald eagles
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Post by Frosthawk (?) » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:18 am

Well, me and London's 1 year anniversary took place on the worldwide Women's March, so that's nice.
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Post by Aramek (?) » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:51 am

Onion is kickin' ass right out of the gate!

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Post by Soft Snow (?) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:00 pm

That march was really impressive. So encouraging. I wonder how many people in total participated?
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Post by Perrydotto (?) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:05 pm

Apparently more than 3 million worldwide.
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Post by Mr. Big (?) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:32 pm

Perrydotto wrote:Apparently more than 3 million worldwide.

Reading that, I spotted this sentence:

Women’s marches were also held in cities across the world, including London, Nairobi, Sydney, Mexico City, Athens, Moscow, Tokyo, and Antarctica, to name just a few.


That's no joke. There really was a Women's March in Antarctica
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Post by Pocket (?) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:56 pm

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Post by Corpy (?) » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:43 am

Perrydotto wrote:Apparently more than 3 million worldwide.

Likely over 4.5 million, possibly even more, since the Washington D.C. march is being severely under-counted.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... true#gid=0

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Post by Corpy (?) » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:43 am


Women scientists have twice as many reasons to be angry
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Post by Soft Snow (?) » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:29 pm

I'm talking to this one person who is trying to discredit the march by saying one of the co-leaders was tied to a terrorist organization. Then he posted a bunch of other links trying to discredit it, I'm thinking of just replying with something like "how does that effect the march?" But you guys are usually way better informed then me at these sorts of things. Any advice you can give?
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Post by Quanta (?) » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:06 pm

I would have to ask why one woman's relationship with an ex-terrorist (and family members currently serving time in foreign prisons) would discredit the entire march (which was diverse, including both women AND men from all walks of life, as well as a global phenomenon), while the current President can appoint Goldman-Sachs bankers to key positions in his cabinet and somehow not lose credibility on his own message of "America First", especially given that one of the key issues the general public had with Clinton was that she was the Wall St. candidate, bought and paid for by Goldman-Sachs, aka the people who were putting their own selfish interests ahead of America?

I have to wonder if perhaps this dude's trying to drag you into an argument in the hopes that you'll falter and he can claim victory, or if he's really that fucking stupid.
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Post by In West Fillydelphia (?) » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:10 pm

Here are the links between Feminism and Jihadi doctrine:

They both hate each other.

That's about all I can come up with.
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Post by Octavia (?) » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:15 pm

Pocket wrote:Image

The police also don't go out in full riot gear and escalate things when it's a bunch of white women marching, as opposed to BLM marches.
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Post by ratchet_rph (?) » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:17 pm

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... men-grants

Donald Trump has big plans to reduce the federal budget. The Hill reported on Thursday morning that his transition team has been working off a Heritage Foundation blueprint and pulled together a list of government agencies they hope to wipe out.

Add to the list of government programs on the possible chopping block: Violence Against Women grants in the Department of Justice. The office that handles those grants had a $480 million budget in 2016. As Twitter user Caroline Q. pointed out, it currently oversees 25 grant programs that help women who have been victims of domestic violence.


Yeah, as the article says, not surprised.
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Post by Perrydotto (?) » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:20 pm

Considering Tump treats his own wife like a piece of pretty furniture, it really isn't surprising.

As we say in German - I can't eat as much as I want to barf.
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Post by SlateSlabrock (?) » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:30 pm

ratchet_rph wrote:Donald Trump has big plans to reduce the federal budget.


Keep in mind that they earlier said:
TheHill wrote:Overall, the blueprint being used by Trump’s team would reduce federal spending by $10.5 trillion over 10 years.


And these cuts are the same as the ones listed in that article. But everything they've proposed so far adds up to about $8 billion, which is about 0.2% of the federal budget ($3.54 trillion). So they're neither "big cuts" nor anywhere close to what they've proposed. They're just all the social programs Republicans have wanted to get rid of for decades because only the military deserve money.

I've said it before, but unless they get serious and stop rising health care costs, nothing they say about fiscal responsibility means anything.

Also, keep in mind that they're still talking about massively expanding the military and spending $1 trillion on infrastructure (good) by turning as many roads into toll roads as he can (ugh).
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Post by Highbrow Dash (?) » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:49 pm

NYPD captain says he is 'not too worried' about rape increase as only rapes by strangers are 'the troubling ones'

“Every rape should be investigated. I wish we could do more,” he said, as reported by DNAinfo. “It really becomes a balancing act for the investigators. Some of them were Tinder, some of them were hookup sites, some of them were actually coworkers. It's not a trend that we're too worried about because out of 13 [sex attacks], only two were true stranger rapes.

”If there's a true stranger rape, a random guy picks up a stranger off the street, those are the troubling ones. That person has, like, no moral standards.”

He added that the rapes in Greenpoint were “not total-abomination rapes where strangers are being dragged off the streets.”
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