The Gender and Sexual Minorities Thread II: So Many Wonders

(?) · Post by **Venusy** (?) » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:24 pm

[quote="In post_id=52856 time=1386435563 user_id=130]

I can't wait

but I don't have money to go travelling around Europe

[/quote]

But there's always someone to take photos.

The Fonz · Post by **The Fonz** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:25 pm

Lazy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:17 pm
I was gonna say that this is basically how a lot of women I've talked to about it see it. There's a reason yaoi/slash fiction/even just straight up IRL gay porn is (comparatively) popular among women.

To be fair, I do live in an extremely homophobic state so that may also contribute to why the answers I received seemed so wildly different from what I expected. Not that I would ever actually kiss a dude just for the sake of turning a girl on (or even just kissing a dude period), but I was really genuinely curious about this phenomena.

(?) · Post by **Dexanth** (?) » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:32 pm

Yea - the whole 'Same gender relations are attractive/arousing for the opposite sex' is by no means limited to men; there's a reason Yaoi manga is a huge huge thing in Japan, for example.

Western nations have a bit more of a hangup there, but anime conventions demonstrate that the desire is by no means limited to Japan.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:49 pm

[quote="In post_id=52856 time=1386435563 user_id=130]

I can't wait

but I don't have money to go travelling around Europe

[/quote]
It'll be a giant debauch if I can at all help it. I may seem all calm and proper on the forums but I'm actually a terrible influence

Scuderia · Post by **Scuderia** (?) » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:50 pm

mannnnnn. My next major vacation would likely be Amsterdam or something like that.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:34 am

Funny you should say...

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:06 am

Sooo... interesting bit of a day, let me tell you.

I've been going kinda stir-crazy. Work is intensely stressful to the point that my TMJ has been aggravated and there are some nights I can't even put my head on a pillow without it hurting. I take my treats where I can get them, and this day started off with a gesture of complete thoughtfulness. A friend of mine took me out for a manicure. She picked up, unprompted, that I was stressed and I needed a bit of a day out, and she knows I enjoy few things more than a chance to girl it up a little.

I got my nails done in a lovely shade of holiday green (Running in Circles). After a great day in the city, I realize I had completely forgotten about a friend's birthday party, which was pretty much going to be a typical late-night house party. I'm fairly closeted, and getting my nails done was not something I would have done if I'd known about the party. He's one of my more jocky friends, and we've known each other since grade school. I'm out to him and he's said he's fine with it, but I sometimes get the distinct impression he's never been entirely cool with it.

Not to mention that there are a bunch of people I don't know, or barely know, at this party. I got some weird looks from some people, but other than that it was fine. It wasn't so much that I felt threatened, because they're jocky but not homophobic. One of them is a gay interior decorator for chrissakes. But I'm not out to any of them and I'm generally not that expressive so I think they were just confused. It put me in a bit of a paranoid mood.

Later on I got another drink in the kitchen alone, and my friend the birthday boy walked in. By this point he is very inebriated. So he asked me:

"Hey, what's up with the nails?"
Being a smartass, I reply. "It's a side effect of having your nails taken care of."
"I know manicures are cool and all, but come on, sparkly green?"
This conversation is going nowhere I am liking, so I mentioned it being Christmassy. He's a December baby and so is my sister, so I know that holiday decorations going up too early is always a button. And I steered his drunk train of thought into a rant about Christmas music at Home Depot. Crisis averted. But by now I was feeling pretty upset.

Later on that evening, I'm getting driven home in a car with three other people. The guy in the back with me is someone I've known all my life, pretty much since I was four or five. But he and I have never gotten along spectacularly. We were always friends of friends, and though we run in the same circles we never really hung out too much. He's someone I wouldn't expect to care, but someone I really didn't feel the need to be out to. While we're on the way home, he asked me:

"Hey, what's up with the nails?"
Oh shit. I took a deep breath, and try to come up with the right thing to say. Then he notices my reaction and continues.
"Whoa, I didn't mean it like that. I mean, how are you doing with it all? Are you coming out, or starting a gradual transition or anything?"
He had me nailed. I asked him how he found out (thinking our mutual friend had told him), and he replied "I guess I've always sorta known. I just wanted you to know I'm happy for you."
I've come out to a lot of people and had it be far less emotional. But that's the first time I've had a coming out happen in reverse.

Femto · Post by **Femto** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:18 am

Man Momar, its weird to see you talk about anxiety because you rock those sundresses and have things together, I tell you what. Maybe it's just my soon-to-be collage grad self talking but you are pretty awesome and have things together and from where I stand you are pretty cool.

Hopefully you took the guy's deductions well, I'm sure your nails were fabulous.

(?) · Post by **Venusy** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:02 am

Momar wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:49 pm
It'll be a giant debauch if I can at all help it. I may seem all calm and proper on the forums but I'm actually a terrible influence

I'm honestly kind of hoping for this.

It's always nice to hear of a reverse coming out with a happy ending, it's a good reminder of how progressive a lot of people are now, even those you wouldn't expect.

I hope that you took it well, and also that work becomes less stressful for you soon.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:06 pm

My parents are saying that it's risky to write my essay on that because 'not enough people support transgender persons' and that 'even one anti trans person on the admissions council will cause your application to get thrown out' so there's too big a risk that every college will reject me because of that essay and that 'these things take time, my friend alerted me whon you posted on Facebook about gay marriage being legalised in Delaware because it's still dangerous to talk about these things'

It was so idiotic that I had to walk out

What would be the best way to refute those claims?

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:50 pm

You can mention that it was "dangerous" to talk about interracial marriage in the 60s?

(?) · Post by **Fizzbuzz** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:09 pm

Momar wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:50 pm
You can mention that it was "dangerous" to talk about interracial marriage in the 60s?

The issue is that, in the eyes of her parents, it's "dangerous" to talk about transgendered people today. Their argument is that, if she brings it up in her essay, she won't get into school. What I would say is that some colleges value diversity and students who care about social progress, like what Dexanth posted on Friday:

Dexanth wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:51 pm
On the subject of admissions : It definitely depends where you go.

For example, over here at Ohio State? An essay discussing one's gender identity and struggles with it would almost certainly be a positive towards getting in - aka 'Philosophy essay' v 'Gender essay', assuming of equivalent quality, the latter would be stronger. OSU stresses diversity a ton, which is a great thing!

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:10 pm

They'd probably respond by saying it's still dangerous now to talk about GSM stuff

Luneshot · Post by **Luneshot** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:15 pm

Maybe you should make up a "standard" essay for your parents to make them happy, but then actually send in the gender one.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:29 pm

Oooor I could say that it's my application and I'll use whatever damn essay I want

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:11 pm

Colleges see a billion "standard" essays a day. Unless you're applying to Bob Jones University, they would much rather see an essay about overcoming adversity from a trans student.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Mmm, they said I should write an essay about how my mom got cancer or my congenital heart disease because 'it's uncontroversial and everyone loves a story about overcoming illness'

(?) · Post by **Fizzbuzz** (?) » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Wouldn't something uncontroversial and sappy like that be the sort of thing that immediately gets glossed over by the reader?

The Fonz · Post by **The Fonz** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:53 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:39 pm
Wouldn't something uncontroversial and sappy like that be the sort of thing that immediately gets glossed over by the reader?

Yes.

Stick with the trans essay.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:16 pm

My University didn't require any sort of admissions essay.

That seems really alien to me. Is that an East Coast thing, or a Private School thing or what?

CorvusCaw · Post by **CorvusCaw** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:36 pm

Aramek wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:16 pm
My University didn't require any sort of admissions essay. That seems really alien to me. Is that an East Coast thing, or a Private School thing or what?

Probably high-end private universities and liberal arts colleges

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:46 pm

Aramek wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:16 pm
My University didn't require any sort of admissions essay. That seems really alien to me. Is that an East Coast thing, or a Private School thing or what?

Every single school I applied to, both public and private ones, required at least 1 essay.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:47 pm

Generally the university system up here reserves 'essay' for anything over 3000 words. I had requirements like that on my application, but they were generally phrased as "write a few short paragraphs about..."

I didn't mention my gender identity on my university apps, but I did for my college apps.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:40 pm

"Write a few paragraps on your application about how great we are and how you really, really, really want to come to school here and why we should let you, mmmmyesssssss. Also giveusallofyourmoneyyyymmmmmm."

Kiith Soban · Post by **Kiith Soban** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:47 pm

I think I should mention that, although Cthulhu's high school and SAT grades are good, her parents said they'd kick her out of the house as soon as she turns 18 if she goes with the trans essay and it doesn't get her into any colleges. That's assuming they have the guts to do that, of course.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:54 pm

Aaaaand my dad sent me this just this morning to try to convince me it would be 'dangerous'

Mr. Big · Post by **Mr. Big** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:12 pm

Remember that story about a waitress who was refused tip and given an anti-gay message? Yeah, it turned out to be a bunch of lies. The waitress got fired from her job because of it.

Some people are idiots.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:16 pm

My dad just gave me a thing printed out from Stanford's website that said people shouldn't come out at job interviews, as a citation

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm

Yeah, technically illegal to come out at job interviews in most states. Most have a "can't ask, can't tell" policy. But colleges are different. They're looking for anything that sets a person apart, and are open about having minority quotas.

Though that being said, you do need to acknowledge that this can indeed backfire, and may cost you acceptances. That is a risk you have to be willing to take.

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:28 pm

People shouldn't have to worry about whether their sexual or gender identity would effect their employment. I ain't gonna be told where I can and can't come out from a world where "coming out" is a thing in the first place. If there was a situation where coming out wasn't going to be some kind of risk, you probably wouldn't need to come out in that situation.

I'm not saying anyone should come out in any situation, though. My stance is that it's the choice of the individual what to do with the personal information about their lives. All that I'd recommend is taking time to think about it.

Preview Edit: I had no idea it was illegal in some states

.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:44 pm

Well, I'm applying to like a dozen unis so it's extraordinarily improbable that they'll all reject me because of the essay

...except that my parents are saying exactly that

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:47 pm

[quote="Cthulhu post_id=52888 time=1386632656 user_id=101]Well, I'm applying to like a dozen unis so it's unlikely they'll all reject me because of the essay

...except that my parents are saying exactly that

[/quote]
Unlikely but within the realm of possibility. And they don't necessarily need to reject you for being trans if they can find another reason. I approve of what you're doing, but don't be blind to the risks.

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:48 pm

[quote="Cthulhu post_id=52883 time=1386629658 user_id=101]Aaaaand my dad sent me this just this morning to try to convince me it would be 'dangerous'

[/quote]
Are you applying to private Catholic colleges or something?

Several years back, University of Michigan revealed how they reviewed their applicants. They had a points system worth a maximum of 150 points, with certain achievements being worth a certain number of points. It depended on GPA, standardized test scores, social service, extracurricular activities, etc. Typically a student was accepted if they got more than 100 points. Getting a perfect score on the SATs was worth 12 points. Being a minority was worth 20 points. Colleges really want diversity. Some colleges even have dorms just for transgender students. If any college would reject you simply for being trans (unlikely unless it's a religious school) then you wouldn't want to go there anyway. Colleges are almost always at the forefront of social progression, so an essay on being a transgendered student would have much more impact than a standard one that they read a hundred of each day..

Mordja · Post by **Mordja** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:53 pm

So I'll admit I don't know how American post-secondary works (other than tuition costs the GDP of several developing countries

), but don't you apply to more than one school? So couldn't you hedge your bets and send different letters to different universities?

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:19 pm

Well, half of those unis are places that my counselor said I was nearly guaranteed to get into, and at least one of them (the one I bothered checking

) has done stuff specifically to accommodate non-cis people, and one of the more competitive schools said it "openly welcomes" transgender people, so

Adir · Post by **Adir** (?) » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:28 am

So your parents are threatening to kick you out of the house for this essay even though if you get accepted at even just one of them (and the odds are very likely) then you'll be moving out anyways?

I think it's just fear on their part and love at the same time. They don't want you to risk your chance at higher education over this but they don't realize how diverse the world is. Also, universities are supposed to be open-minded, at least that's something my university praises.

Honestly, if it is well written I would say use it. Like other people have said, universities are looking for diversity. It's up to you.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:39 pm

So, my parents talked to me about the essay again. The following is a list of things that happened, not in chronological order.

My dad retracted his earlier threat of kicking me out. He pointed out though that I probably wouldn't want to live with them, which is indeed true and that 'if you're gonna do this stupid thing you better make plans for if you get rejected by all of the unis'
The stuff y'all said doesn't matter because non of y'all are on a college admissions council. I should have noticed that I brought up Jerrylee, who is a grad student and teaches classes at a uni and said my essay wasn't a horrible idea (I actually said that he said it was a good idea but uh), and they said that hey have a lot of (Chinese) professors from the local university in their social circle, and from interacting with them, they have roughly the same political views as my parents do, but
Also that y'all aren't responsible for me and y'all mostly be supportive because they know better or something.
I brought up that the smartest person I know and a literal rocket scientist said that I should use that essay, and a lot of other people who are also in college/graduates, and she asked for statistics on what percentage of students wrote an essay about being trans, and the acceptance rate on those (like that exists)
They brought up the gay teacher being fired and I pointed out that that was a private, Catholic school. My mom said that 'I can tell you that even if they aren't Catholic they're all the same in that regard'
'You'll have a long life. This is one of the most important steps in your life and you shouldn't throw it away on a stupid thing like this.'
My dad said that in the best case scenario, one school would accept me, and more likely, none, if I used the trans essay.
I said that based on an analysis of the information I had, the chance that no college would accept me because of the trans essay was negligible, and thus an acceptable risk. They said 'What if you don't get accepted because of it? You shouldn't take that risk!'
She asked me why I was still arguing this and I replied, 'because I think that I am right.'
Near the end she said to my dad 'he/she (spoken chinese doesn't distinguish gender in pronouns) is still trying to argue this' because from her standpoint this isn't a debate or argument, it's that she is experienced and is correct as a mom.
She tried to compromise by saying that I could use that essay for a writing supplement (individual school essay)* for a school that I'd proven was trans friendly, and a more vanilla one for the general essay*
I ended it by saying twice that my mom was too angry.
I overheard my dad saying to my mom in another room, after we had finished talking, that he should say to me that admissions council people are traditional and conservative[/list:u]

tl;dr: I didn't convince them that this was a good idea, but I'm pretty sure she said that if I wanted to be 'stubborn', I could use the trans essay.

Also, I like lists

*All of my current schools are Common Application, so there's one essay which is going to every school (the trans essay) and each school can ask for writing supplements (their own essay)

(?) · Post by **Fizzbuzz** (?) » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:11 pm

Well, that confirms it. They're using false concern for your future in order to further their bigotry. There are worse things in the world than false kindness, but there aren't many.

Cthulhu Inc · Post by **Cthulhu Inc** (?) » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:46 pm

They say that they accept my trans-ness, and that they hope I'll find a SO (check!) and have kids but

Also I heard one ask 'what' s transitioning?' with the other replying 'surgery and stuff'

Oh, my mom also complained that my essay didn't have enough 'positive energy' because it was 'talking about how horrible a mom I am'.

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:49 pm

They are worrying more about how it will affect them than how it will affect you. It's a very common reaction among parents of those who have recently come out.