The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Tolerance!

[Aramek]

You could not assume, that avoids the whole issue!

I know I shouldn't. I am, however, going to keep automatically doing it. It'll take some time to train myself into not assuming everyone I talk to is a dude, but it may happen eventually.

Until then, dudes. Dudes everywhere. I'll be firing out he's and him's from my AK-47 of Assumptions, just spraying those gendered pronouns at the faceless crowds on the internet. And I'll feel nothing while doing it, no joy, nor malice, just that it is something I am doing.

[Pineapple]

When you're talking on this forum, though, not elsewhere... with our forum's demographics, it's not a coin flip where one side=male and the other=female, because it's demonstratedly not 50/50. It's more like a roll of a 10+ sided die where just one of the numbers=female and all the others are male.

I'm talking about here specifically, mind, because it's more or less a fixed group of people instead of internet randoms, and it's good to not assume anywhere, but I wouldn't fault someone for not checking every member profile they talk to for gender.

Dealing with a single unknown person is still 50/50 (the single coin flip), regardless of results pool.

A coin is flipped 9 times and comes up heads heads heads heads tails heads heads heads heads, what is the result of the tenth flip?

[Factory Factory]

Edge.

Or did you want probability? Simple probability suggests a 50/50 chance of heads/tails, and expecting any differently is the Gambler's Fallacy. But Bayesian probability tells us that an extremely unlikely sequence for a 50/50 coin has just occurred, so we have reason to expect that the coin is not 50/50, and therefore a continued bias towards heads is likely.

[Pineapple]

Edge.

Or did you want probability? Simple probability suggests a 50/50 chance of heads/tails, and expecting any differently is the Gambler's Fallacy. But Bayesian probability tells us that an extremely unlikely sequence for a 50/50 coin has just occurred, so we have reason to expect that the coin is not 50/50, and therefore a continued bias towards heads is likely.

Consider the sequence as a portion of all the times the coin has been and will ever be flipped and it becomes insignificant.

[CorvusCaw]

Demographics and statistics are not a coin flip. They are numbers that establish a trend and inferences made from these trends (~88% male) are perfectly reasonable. We are not dealing with a global sample that is 50/50.

Globally, 1.9% of the people in the world speak Japanese. In Japan, 99.9% of the population speaks Japanese. If you make a phone call to a random number in Japan, what are the odds of the person on the other end speaking Japanese? 99.9 percent, or 1.9 percent?

[West Filly]

The justification for not making assumptions doesn't come from a supposed probability. The justification comes from the idea that, if you misgender someone, it's not nice for them. The way not to hurt anyone is to not make assumptions.

The reason it's sexist? it's because you're choosing to misgender the women each time by selecting male pronouns. It'd be sexist no matter which one you chose. Probability doesn't come into it.

[Lazy]

Except a lot of people who browse forums do it casually, and if you don't talk with someone enough to know their gender, your only other options are digging through post histories for a mention, or looking at their profile, and a ton of people don't know gender is listed there, and even more don't even use the option.

And when you don't know someone's gender, yes, it's better to use genderless language, but many people are completely unused to cutting gender out of how they talk since that's the only way they know(so they use male pronouns because that way there's a much lower chance of misgendering someone), and it takes a while to learn even once they're aware of it. It's not ideal, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone.

[londonarbuckle]

I default to "He" unless I know differently. Thankfully, when I am unsure, I check the handy gender selection in our profiles!

Eh, I was just talking about when someone KNOWS someone else wants to be called a particular pronoun but flat out refuses to do so out of some dumbass "principle." If you don't know, I personally think it's understandable. You shouldn't default to "he," but a lot of people do when they aren't thinking about it, myself included.

[Timber72]

I just look at their profile if it's someone I don't know. If they chose the joke option, I'm not changing anything I wrote. If they left it at default, I use genderless.

[Pineapple]

We are not dealing with a global sample that is 50/50.

No, we're dealing with a sample of 1 that is roughly 50/50, and if you're wrong it may be upsetting to them.

Get it now?

[Dexanth]

No, we're dealing with a sample of 1 that is roughly 50/50, and if you're wrong it may be upsetting to them.

Get it now?

50/50 over the whole world. But here as noted the trend is heavily skewed one way. So when you encounter an unknown on Ponygoons, the odds of it being male over female are much greater than 50/50.

[Pineapple]

50/50 over the whole world. But here as noted the trend is heavily skewed one way. So when you encounter an unknown on Ponygoons, the odds of it being male over female are much greater than 50/50.

And it's going to stay that way while you keep reinforcing andronormativity, so most women leave or pretend to be men because it's easier.

[West Filly]

And when you don't know someone's gender, yes, it's better to use genderless language, but many people are completely unused to cutting gender out of how they talk since that's the only way they know(so they use male pronouns because that way there's a much lower chance of misgendering someone), and it takes a while to learn even once they're aware of it. It's not ideal, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone.

I think the fact that it's not normal is a problem. Someone has to do the legwork to give genderless terms some exposure and make it normal. While you're right that the status quo is to blame more than individual, I don't want to let it slide just because it's a habit to so many. You're right that I shouldn't beat people up. I'm still right that this needs to change.

I'd urge you to take this up with me, but you might not think it's that important. Now I don't normally make this kind of argument, because I was always taught that an appeal to emotions that is not backed up with some reasoning is a logical fallacy that amounts to begging the question, and I'm going to be honest about that. I feel kind of dirty saying what I'm about to say. Here goes: For transgendered individuals, being called by the wrong pronoun really fucks up the whole day. It isn't small at all. It can be a writhing feeling. It's like a coin on the tracks that de rails the train of little positive things which powers us through each day's challenges. Using neutral terms can almost eliminate the possibility, bar the odd moment of forgetfulness. Don't spray your AK of pronouns, because some people in the crowd actually get hurt.

[Aramek]

If I use the pronoun "s/he" (pronounced "sheehee" like a giggle) will that get people to not complain? I just don't want to get into the habit of using "they" as I adjust my habits to only ever use proper nouns.

As for probability, yeah, there's a 50/50 every time. But, I think I'm more outcome-based. Like, even though each guess should be 50/50, if I pick one, I'll be wrong more often. Like, here, for example, way more males. So, blind, if I pick male, I'll be wrong less often, and, in my brain, that supersedes the 50/50 idea.



Or I'll just use s/he. Whatever. Frankly, I just want people to not complain.

And it's going to stay that way while you keep reinforcing andronormativity, so most women leave or pretend to be men because it's easier.

When there's more women in a place, I automatically assume female on a blind guess. Like, here in the Cancer Center, like, 80% of the staff is female. I default to saying "she" while I'm at work, and I have to guess at pronouns.

[CorvusCaw]

No, we're dealing with a sample of 1 that is roughly 50/50, and if you're wrong it may be upsetting to them.

Get it now?

If they get offended by something so benign, then I suspect their problems would run much deeper than pronouns on a message board will solve. If people choose to be so easily offended, that's their problem, not mine. I've done nothing wrong and I have no obligation to kneel before their every desire to spare them from hurt feelings (which are a part of life).

If I call someone a 'he' when they might be a 'she', then all they have to do is correct it. I will use the pronoun they prefer, if no preference is given, I will use 'he' because this is mainly a 'he' board. If they can't handle that, too bad.

[Lazy]

I think the fact that it's not normal is a problem. Someone has to do the legwork to give genderless terms some exposure and make it normal. While you're right that the status quo is to blame more than individual, I don't want to let it slide just because it's a habit to so many. You're right that I shouldn't beat people up. I'm still right that this needs to change.

I'd urge you to take this up with me, but you might not think it's that important. Now I don't normally make this kind of argument, because I was always taught that an appeal to emotions that is not backed up with some reasoning is a logical fallacy that amounts to begging the question, and I'm going to be honest about that. I feel kind of dirty saying what I'm about to say. Here goes: For transgendered individuals, being called by the wrong pronoun really fucks up the whole day. It isn't small at all. It can be a writhing feeling. It's like a coin on the tracks that de rails the train of little positive things which powers us through each day's challenges. Using neutral terms can almost eliminate the possibility, bar the odd moment of forgetfulness. Don't spray your AK of pronouns, because some people in the crowd actually get hurt.

I never said it wasn't a problem. This is why I do my best to be sure before using these words.

When I say "I don't hold it against them", I mean exactly that-I don't think they're a bad person for it. They should, however, still be educated about it, it's just that being antagonistic and making people feel like shit isn't useful.

No, we're dealing with a sample of 1 that is roughly 50/50, and if you're wrong it may be upsetting to them.

Get it now?

Pine, if you were saying that it's not okay to take that 12% chance, that'd be fine. Misgendering can be a real hurtful thing.

But most people here were/are just disagreeing with your implication that if you grabbed a marble blind-folded out of a bag with 88 green marbles and 12 blue marbles, it would be a 50/50 chance between green and blue, because whether or not the split between the two is 50/50 across a the marbles in the world, it clearly isn't insude of that bag.

[Pineapple]

If they get offended by something so benign, then I suspect their problems would run much deeper than pronouns on a message board will solve. If people choose to be so easily offended, that's their problem, not mine. I've done nothing wrong and I have no obligation to kneel before their every desire to spare them from hurt feelings (which are a part of life).

If I call someone a 'he' when they might be a 'she', then all they have to do is correct it. If they can't handle that, too bad.

If you're going to be a transphobic asshole I'm just going to put you on ignore, bye!

[londonarbuckle]

If they get offended by something so benign, then I suspect their problems would run much deeper than pronouns on a message board will solve. If people choose to be so easily offended, that's their problem, not mine. I've done nothing wrong and I have no obligation to kneel before their every desire to spare them from hurt feelings (which are a part of life).

If I call someone a 'he' when they might be a 'she', then all they have to do is correct it. If they can't handle that, too bad.

Okay actually no this is kind of what I was talking about with the "err on the side of not being an asshole" thing.

Is it really that big of a deal to you to adjust your language to not hurt a trans individual's feelings? Who is the easily offended one here?

[Lazy]

If they get offended by something so benign, then I suspect their problems would run much deeper than pronouns on a message board will solve. If people choose to be so easily offended, that's their problem, not mine. I've done nothing wrong and I have no obligation to kneel before their every desire to spare them from hurt feelings (which are a part of life).

If I call someone a 'he' when they might be a 'she', then all they have to do is correct it. If they can't handle that, too bad.

Corpus, a large part of what makes
life hard for trans people is bouts of gender dysphoria. It's something that, long story short, can make trans people feel like complete shit, and the things that can set it off are generally gender related, ie misgendering. It can be very harmful and those feelings shouldn't be overlooked because "they should just deal with it".

If you're going to be a transphobic asshole I'm just going to put you on ignore, bye!

This is not helpful.

[Pineapple]

This is not helpful.

Neither is arguing in bad faith, which is what Corpus appears to be doing.

[Pineapple]

But most people here were/are just disagreeing with your implication that if you grabbed a marble blind-folded out of a bag with 88 green marbles and 12 blue marbles, it would be a 50/50 chance between green and blue, because whether or not the split between the two is 50/50 across a the marbles in the world, it clearly isn't insude of that bag.

Only if the bag is impermeable, and only as it applies to the group. From the perspective of the individual you have two choices and one is wrong.

[CorvusCaw]

Okay actually no this is kind of what I was talking about with the "err on the side of not being an asshole" thing.

Is it really that big of a deal to you to adjust your language to not hurt a trans individual's feelings? Who is the easily offended one here?

ok, I didn't mean to sound so strong here. sorry.

I have no problem adjusting my language to the preferences of a trans individual, if they identify as such. That wasn't even what this was about. It's about the idea that since 88% of the community identifies as male, then the male pronoun would be used if, and only if, an individual has not stated a desire to be known by another pronoun. That's all.

Corpus, a large part of what makes
life hard for trans people is bouts of gender dysphoria. It's something that, long story short, can make trans people feel like complete shit, and the things that can set it off are generally gender related, ie misgendering. It can be very harmful and those feelings shouldn't be overlooked because "they should just deal with it".

I'm not even addressing this as a trans issue; I was mainly addressing the idea of whether the 'he' pronoun should be used if there is no indication given that it should not be. Using a half-ass pronoun like 's/he' or 'he/she' could be even worse, depending on the individual. Using 'they' could imply that they suffer from a multiple personality disorder.

[Aramek]

If you're going to be a transphobic asshole I'm just going to put you on ignore, bye!

If a person accidentally gets it wrong, is "oops, I'm sorry, friend" not good enough? I mean, until literally everyone starts automatically thinking in gender-less terms, this is going to keep happening, vast majority of the time on accident. And that is going to take a very long time. Nobody here is out to hurt anyone, especially our Trans friends, but, accidents happen, and we should indeed strive to reduce those, but it is still just a reduction.

[CorvusCaw]

Only if the bag is impermeable, and only as it applies to the group. From the perspective of the individual you have two choices and one is wrong.

But if they have not expressed which one is wrong, how should one proceed?

[concerned reader]

Only if the bag is impermeable, and only as it applies to the group. From the perspective of the individual you have two choices and one is wrong.

I think we should probably drop the statistical arguments because at this point y'all aren't even arguing the same thing anymore. You're just throwing different statistical ideas around and muddying the actual issue. (Also gender isn't binary etc. etc.)

Using a half-ass pronoun like 's/he' or 'he/she' could be even worse, depending on the individual. Using 'they' could imply that they suffer from a multiple personality disorder.

It's actually grammatically accepted in the English language as a non-gendered pronoun at this point. Nobody would assume they suffer from MPD.

[Pineapple]

Singular they construction has been around since the 14th century, and was only arbitrarily ruled "incorrect" by pedants in the 18th.

But if they have not expressed which one is wrong, how should one proceed?

By not applying a gendered term.

If a person accidentally gets it wrong, is "oops, I'm sorry, friend" not good enough? I mean, until literally everyone starts automatically thinking in gender-less terms, this is going to keep happening, vast majority of the time on accident. And that is going to take a very long time. Nobody here is out to hurt anyone, especially our Trans friends, but, accidents happen, and we should indeed strive to reduce those, but it is still just a reduction.

When the reply to "that's hurtful to some people" is "well I'm gonna do it anyway so suck it up" they can fuck right off.

[concerned reader]

But if they have not expressed which one is wrong, how should one proceed?

I've found that just simply asking, "Hey, what is your prefered pronoun?" is exceedingly easy and has pretty much no drawbacks. I've done it before on facebook, and I've done it in person. Works every time.

[Lazy]

Only if the bag is impermeable, and only as it applies to the group. From the perspective of the individual you have two choices and one is wrong.

Yes, I'm aware. People should use genderless language. It's the right choice.

I'm telling you that at least some of the people who told you that your 50/50 thing was wrong that you seemed to be angrily responding to just were bothered by the innacurate numbers. You were talking morals,(the numbers don't matter when emotional harm is on the line) and they were talking math(uuuh that is not how statistics work). It was a miscommunication.

[CorvusCaw]

Singular they construction has been around since the 14th century, and was only arbitrarily ruled "incorrect" by pedants in the 18th.



By not applying a gendered term.



When the reply to "that's hurtful to some people" is "well I'm gonna do it anyway so suck it up" they can fuck right off.

Obviously I would apologize if they expressed that something I said was hurtful, but what I mean is that I can't know what's hurtful and what isn't until they express an individual preference. All it takes is a "please refer to me as she" and I will...

[Pineapple]

Obviously I would apologize if they expressed that something I said was hurtful, but what I mean is that I can't know what's hurtful and what isn't until they express an individual preference. All it takes is a "please refer to me as she" and I will...

If you are already aware it can be hurtful why not use a term that avoids it in the first place?

You know, before you've inadvertently hurt someone?

[Aramek]

Easiest answer, because the neutral response isn't automatic yet. We're working on it. It'll take a while, some of us will be faster than others, but none of us are trying to cause harm. It just happens sometimes.

My response if I get accused of using the wrong pronoun is to go "Well, excuuuuuse meeeeeee" in that Link voice, and then, I keep a pocket full of glitter at all times, I toss it onto them/into the air in front of me, and then I use the moment of distraction to stage a clean getaway.

[Octavia]

This is the reason why we have the option in our profile to choose our preferred pronoun. Everyone should go into User Control Panel>Profile>Call Me... and select theirs right now.

[CorvusCaw]

If you are already aware it can be hurtful why not use a term that avoids it in the first place?

Actually, I didn't consider that it would be hurtful before today, which was why I reacted so strongly earlier. Anything (including 'they') could be hurtful if you don't know what the person you're addressing finds hurtful.

I spent years working in a field where using 'they' always referred to a team rather than an individual, so the singular 'they' is awkward (I'll adjust). When necessary, I have always used the gender-neutral 'he', which has also been around for centuries. If 'they' (by nature a plural word) can be used as singular, why can't 'he' be used as gender-neutral?

[Inkie]

Obviously I would apologize if they expressed that something I said was hurtful, but what I mean is that I can't know what's hurtful and what isn't until they express an individual preference. All it takes is a "please refer to me as she" and I will...

I think the problem is just that you don't realize how hurtful using the wrong pronoun can be. We're not talking about the small offense you might take from being mistook for a woman. I'm no expert on the matter and I don't want to start say something stupid, but it might help if someone could link a good trans* resource, because I feel like the problem is just one of not understanding the situation rather than not caring for it. The point is, triggering the very dysphoric feelings someone has been struggling with their whole life is not something that can be undone by an apology.

Preview edit: well, not really relevant anymore.

[Luneshot]

I spent years working in a field where using 'they' always referred to a team rather than an individual, so the singular 'they' is awkward (I'll adjust). When necessary, I have always used the gender-neutral 'he', which has also been around for centuries. If 'they' (by nature a plural word) can be used as singular, why can't 'he' be used as gender-neutral?

They is gender neutral by default, whereas 'he' is automatically assumed to refer to a male. Technically, if you wanted to use a gender-neutral singular you could refer to someone as 'it', but for obvious reasons that's not a good idea. We don't really have a better option, so 'they' is what we're stuck with.

[Pineapple]

I spent years working in a field where using 'they' always referred to a team rather than an individual, so the singular 'they' is awkward (I'll adjust). When necessary, I have always used the gender-neutral 'he', which has also been around for centuries. If 'they' (by nature a plural word) can be used as singular, why can't 'he' be used as gender-neutral?

Because 'he' is inextricably gendered, it reinforces 'male as default/normal/superior'.

[CorvusCaw]

Because 'he' is inextricably gendered, it reinforces 'male as default/normal/superior'.

that's your interpretation of it. I don't see it that way, but for the sake of avoiding further kerfuffles, I'll use 'they' (until somebody comes along who gets offended by that). All right?

[Pineapple]

that's your interpretation of it. I don't see it that way, but for the sake of avoiding further kerfuffles, I'll use 'they' (until somebody comes along who gets offended by that). All right?

You see it that way because you are male and you have the privilege of not being misgendered all the time.

[Mr. Big]

I've heard some people use "hir" as a gender neutral alternative to "his" & "her". And "zie" as an gender-neutral "he" & "she"

I don't use it (I just use "they" if I don't know the preferred pronoun), but there's that.

[Baked Bads]

Please don't make me turn this thread around.