The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Tolerance!

Headless Horse · Post by **Headless Horse** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:00 pm

Pony show gives us a neat and rather unique look at a world where "she" is the default pronoun.

It feels novel at first, then ends up seeming pretty natural.

Be funny to picture being a male pony who gets called on by someone who doesn't know otherwise and means no direct harm as a female, though.

* funny = instructive

CorvusCaw · Post by **CorvusCaw** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:01 pm

ok, well I can't change that. You can call me 'she' if you want, Pineapple.

Anything to move off of this issue and back to more important things.

Headless Horse wrote:Pony show gives us a neat and rather unique look at a world where "she" is the default pronoun.

It feels novel at first, then ends up seeming pretty natural.

Be funny to picture being a male pony who gets called on by someone who doesn't know otherwise and means no direct harm as a female, though.

* funny = instructive

Or for that matter, the use of species-specific indefinite pronouns in cases where individuals outside of the species are included.

Pineapple · Post by **Pineapple** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:11 pm

CorpusCavernosum wrote:ok, well I can't change that.

You can, however, consider the perspectives of others.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:12 pm

Pineapple wrote:privilege of not being misgendered all the time.

Our real privilege lies not in just the infrequency of it happening, but in that when it happens, it doesn't affect us! It is like, double privilege!

Anything to move off of this issue and back to more important things.

Lets talk about the meetup I'm hosting next week and how nobody is going to come!

Or for that matter, the use of species-specific indefinite pronouns in cases where individuals outside of the species are included.

"HE'S NOT A MONSTER! HE'S A MINOTAUR!"

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:15 pm

I return from dinner, and my goodness has this escalated!

Lazy wrote:When I say "I don't hold it against them", I mean exactly that-I don't think they're a bad person for it. They should, however, still be educated about it, it's just that being antagonistic and making people feel like shit isn't useful.

Of course it isn't. Are you accusing me of such?

As for another strand of the discussion that is going on, there seem to be several reasons not to default the term he.

First is that misgendering causes much emotional disarray. I will add that it is certainly not for the people who are hurt to suck it up. If someone feels extremely hurt by misgendering, what are they to do to change how they respond to that stimulus? This is a very intense and raw emotion that can be conjured by something that is seemingly so small.

Second, is the strong possibility that the word "he" is gendered (which I believe it is). IF he is gendered, then defaulting to he does perpetuate the view that the masculine form takes precedence. Either way, neutral terms are certainly not gendered and do not put anyone above anyone else. I'll use an example which may not be a perfect analogy, but one where the point is easier to see. When job advertisements ask for a police"man" or a mail"man", females were reluctant to apply, as it created the view that such spaces were male spaces. Using neutral terms (Mail Carrier, Police Officer) does make females feel more welcome to join these communities, and it informs society that these are not necessarily male regions. As an aside, even equal opportunity didn't cause equal mixes in these communities, only positive action was able to agitate the internalised views of society to get these places much toward where they should be.

You might not think it is comparable, but I would argue thusly: By defaulting to "he" you are saying "I assume that you are a man" you are saying "this is generally a male space, and so we will treat the uncertain as though they are male" and then you go to show some statistics which certainly do not help females feel welcome here.

All it takes is a little effort to change "he" to "they".

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:21 pm

"Playing the odds" is not a good way to deal with social stuff. Even though the vast majority of people are straight, it bothers me when people assume I am by asking "do you have a girlfriend?" or other similar questions. The problem with gender mislabeling is there aren't as many socially acceptable and grammatically correct ways to show neutrality. If I want to know about the relationship status of someone else, instead of asking if they have a girlfriend/boyfriend, I could always just ask "are you seeing anyone?" It's not that easy with gender thanks to our stupid English language.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:26 pm

"What is your current preferred sexual orientation and your current relationship status?"

"Query: What are you doing Tuesday?"

Baked Bads · Post by **Baked Bads** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:36 pm

Okay, let's only use "They" unless you know in this thread from now on. If you are addressed wrongly please tell them you were and then please tell the person you wrongly addressed sorry. Make sure to fill out your profile with the pronoun you want to be addressed to help with this.

If this keeps going timeouts will happen because fuck this noise.

CorvusCaw · Post by **CorvusCaw** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:40 pm

Baked Bads wrote:Okay, let's only use "They" unless you know in this thread from now on. If you are addressed wrongly please tell them you were and then please tell the person you wrongly addressed sorry.

If this keeps going timeouts will happen because fuck this noise.

I'm ok with this and I've learned things today. huzzah.

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:48 pm

CorpusCavernosum wrote:I'm trying to, but it's not always instantaneous.

I know, this is in your credit. I do greatly appreciate your efforts, and I know that these things take a lot of thought. Trust me, I wouldn't have believed a lot of the things I have said today just a few months ago. Pineyapple has been equally as angry with me in the past for similar things. Trying is much more than a lot of people will do, so I just want to say thanks.

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:03 pm

Would it be possible to just add another line to the info under our avs? Something like:

Joined: Sep 17, 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Call Me: him

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:05 pm

So long as the field is closed as to ensure that no one inputs "maybe"

Ragnar · Post by **Ragnar** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:07 pm

I'd love that, personally. I slipped up once already.

Factory Factory · Post by **Factory Factory** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:10 pm

Ishmael?

ABitS · Post by **ABitS** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:42 pm

Octavia wrote:Would it be possible to just add another line to the info under our avs? Something like:

Joined: Sep 17, 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Call Me: him

I really think this is a good idea, so I threw it into the comment box. I already check profiles if I'm ever uncertain, but I feel like it might be a good way to increase exposure of the issue to the general population and it'll make it a lot easier for people to use the proper pronouns all of the time.

Baked Bads · Post by **Baked Bads** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:42 pm

Pony Factory Factory wrote:Ishmael?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_me_Ishmael#Ishmael

CapacitorPlague · Post by **CapacitorPlague** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:20 pm

Octavia wrote:This is the reason why we have the option in our profile to choose our preferred pronoun. Everyone should go into User Control Panel>Profile>Call Me... and select theirs right now.

I am severely disappointed there isn't an option for...

In West Fillydelphia wrote:So long as the field is closed as to ensure that no one inputs "maybe"

...

Never mind.

(?) · Post by **Dexanth** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:27 pm

It'd probably be easier to add those little gender-signs somewhere in the avatar, and then just have a good neutral/unlisted/etc one.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:59 pm

Dexanth wrote:It'd probably be easier to add those little gender-signs somewhere in the avatar, and then just have a good neutral/unlisted/etc one.

We have those on my voice acting site because it makes it easier to go "Oh, there's a dude/chick, I need a dude/chick voice, let's listen to their demo."

(?) · Post by **Dexanth** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:09 pm

It's useful and more importantly it's a single character which means from an information standpoint it's minimally intrusive with maximum utility!

Bigdog · Post by **Bigdog** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:09 pm

Add me to the people who'd love a "call me" field under folks' avatars with the rest of the info.

I have a trans woman acquaintance that I made gendering slipups with for several months after she came out to me. I felt horrible about it and I think I've mostly managed to fix my shit at this point, but the reason why is that I knew and addressed her as a male-gendered individual for the year or so before she told me otherwise, and so much of associating pronouns with individuals is subconscious; there's no real way for me to go into the language centers of my brain and do a manual find->replace to make sure it immediately knows its shit in all possible situations. When I managed to consciously catch it, I would, but I still made slipups. This was an online-only friendship, so I didn't have the benefit of cues from how she presented (not that I'd expect her to present femininely to "help" me anyway, you realize).

ABitS · Post by **ABitS** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:12 pm

My only concern with just using a symbol is that outside of male/female they're pretty much unknown. So instead of 'I don't know what gender this person is so I'm going to call them he' we might get 'I don't know what this weird symbol is so I'm just going to call them he.'

Lazy · Post by **Lazy** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:12 pm

You guys should probably check out this thread.

AlliterativeAxolotl · Post by **AlliterativeAxolotl** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:13 pm

People could also be super-silly and write "Mars", "Venus" etc. in the "Location" field

But yeah, adding a field regarding gender is a good idea. If adding another field is too complicated because it might mess up the layout of the forums or something just take away the field that tells the joining date, it's not that important anyway, I think.

Scuderia · Post by **Scuderia** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:16 pm

What does this look like to people viewing the site not logged in?
It looks like we made gender identification a priority instead of something optional like location. Anyone should be able to opt out if they choose to opt out.

Or opt in. Right. Let's not got go overboard on this.

GENDER IDENTITY IS FLUID THEREFORE I REQUIRE THREE DOUBLE PRECISION FLOATING POINT NUMBERS TO ACCURATELY REPRESENT MYSELF.
\/

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:17 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:What does this look like to people viewing the site not logged in?
It looks like we made gender identification a priority instead of something optional like location. Anyone should be able to opt out if they choose to opt out.

Actually, it should be opt in. No one displays this gender option unless they have chosen to.

Red Terra · Post by **Red Terra** (?) » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:03 pm

Just found a clip of something so d'aaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww

I know Christopher Hitchens isn't known for being the 'kindest' of well-known speakers but this video (and during his later life when he was dying of cancer) really shows how much of a kind and understanding person he is

"I say that homosexuality is not just a form of sex; it’s a form of love and it deserves our respect for that reason. In fact, when my children were young, I’d have been proud to have Stephen [Fry] as their babysitter and I’d tell them they were lucky. And if anyone came to my door as a babysitter wearing holy orders, I’d first call a cab and then the police."
-Hitchens

I like how camera cuts to the front row where we see a nun smiling, turning to her colleagues who are finding this most unorthodox, and refrains not to clap because of her unenthused colleagues

I miss Hitchens

confuzzler · Post by **confuzzler** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:14 pm

super super super late: Congrats, london!

Self-discovery is always a good thing.

Also, obligatory mention of ponies recruiting people.

my life is basically being a big ball of people coming back from the holidays, going to work, interviewing for a new job and being close to getting the fabled letter of recommendation from my therapist.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:56 pm

Glad to hear you're keeping yourself busy, Fuzz. I hope you get that job. How's the family sitch working out?

londonarbuckle · Post by **londonarbuckle** (?) » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:42 pm

confuzzler wrote:being close to getting the fabled letter of recommendation from my therapist.

Yay, that's awesome!

Also I just noticed your avatar is animated now. Be careful about posting anything too adorable next to that thing, it might explode people's brains (scientific term: Adorablaneurysm)

ABitS · Post by **ABitS** (?) » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:55 pm

(Not to derail this chat but you should also mask out the static areas, it'll just take a minute and it'll clean up a lot of the artifacts. It seems a wee bit noisy/artifact heavy too so you might be doing something weird during the frame capture process)

apart from that though it's pretty good. Also I hope everything's going well with you and wish you the best of luck.

Factory Factory · Post by **Factory Factory** (?) » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:21 am

Another Brick in the Stall wrote:(Not to derail this chat but you should also mask out the static areas, it'll just take a minute and it'll clean up a lot of the artifacts. It seems a wee bit noisy/artifact heavy too so you might be doing something weird during the frame capture process)

apart from that though it's pretty good. Also I hope everything's going well with you and wish you the best of luck.

(I, uh, just resized some random GIF. I haven't calibrated my new monitor and I missed the artifacts.

)

confuzzler · Post by **confuzzler** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:57 am

Pony Factory Factory wrote:
(I, uh, just resized some random GIF. I haven't calibrated my new monitor and I missed the artifacts. )

Yes, that one. This avatar was graciously donated to me.

As for the family situation, it's been decent. Since moving into my apartment, I've spoken to my dad ~1 time, and that was over the phone about birthday plans. My brother, sister and nephew are still cool about stuff, and this last Wednesday was actually the first day in a while that I had to look like a guy outside of work. I kind of accidentally didn't give my brother any kind of buffer before seeing me as a girl full-time, but he didn't even really flinch after the first day when he was like "Oh, I've never seen you in your natural habitat before, as it would be." Next week is my brother's birthday, and then mine two days later. We're probably going to go out and get pizza at a local buffet place, which will be interesting since one of my new year's resolutions was to be vegetarian.

This will be with the whole family, so it'll be the first time seeing my dad and stepmom in person since moving out. When I moved, I left some resources from a church-affiliated body and The Family Acceptance Project on how to work with and accept LGBT kids, so I'm hoping they've had a chance to read through them. They haven't really talked to me about stuff since that one day, but I still make sure I know when they're coming over so I can either look like a guy or hide in my room; I really don't want to cause any more culture shock than their already going through.

Assuming I get the job I applied for, I'll probably start hormones and come out of the closet next month. The new job would provide health insurance, which is why, since it's been made clear that I'll be off my stepmom's insurance when I transition (she says it'll be the company to take me off. I'm not sure if I believe her).

Also, for a good bit of Christmas break I was out of my ADHD medicine, and my doctor was on vacation, so I couldn't get more. When I'm off that stuff I tend to be a bit more irritable and a lot more impatient. Combine that with my tendency to explode at first and then push everyone away under stress, and I somehow gave my boyfriend the impression that I didn't like him and was embarrassed by his existence.

I sent him this big email telling him otherwise, but it'll take a bit for that damage to repair, since he has the self-esteem of a rock and his default state of assumption is that no one likes him and only tolerates him out of courtesy. We're seeing Phantom of The Opera next week for my birthday/our threemonthiversary, though! Maybe I'll do something then to let him know I do much more than just tolerate him.

Mir · Post by **Mir** (?) » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:39 pm

umm, Hey.
I just read through a large chunk of this topic, and I just wanted to say how impressed I am.
The amount of sympathy and empathy coming from some of you is just incredible.

And the courage of the people facing their lives. I honestly don't know if I could ever be even a fraction that brave.

I think I've also really learned a lot about some things I've never really thought about before.

So... just wishing everyone here the very best in any challanges they might face. You're all some very special people, and it sorta gives me a little hope for the world.

Luneshot · Post by **Luneshot** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:44 pm

It's always great to see people read the topic, because it means that people can learn a lot about others and correct some misconceptions that they might have. We're a friendly bunch, so feel free to ask questions!

West Filly · Post by **West Filly** (?) » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:38 pm

It's getting... I don't want to say "worse". More intense is the best way to put it. More frequent. More frightening.

It's the little things.

I was cooking some spaghetti bolognese, only dad was getting a little too eager to eat it, so he was lending a hand in the closing stages. I just gracelessly dumped the spaghetti from the colander onto my plate, before pouring a lopsided helping of bolognese over the top. Then dad chuckles

"You cook like a man."

I was playing a really weird variant of Risk with my friends last night. The rulebook is a bit thick. It said "... on each of his territories..." In fact, it spoke in male terms all the way through. This didn't do anything. I wasn't even slightly thinking about it at this point. Instead I said, perhaps unconsciously "Well this assumes that everyone who'll play this game is a man." I still hadn't realised. The response I got...

"I don't see any women at this table, do you?"

While my knowledge tells me otherwise, something in my mind imagines the question being sincere. My mind's eye paints this scene, where I would answer "yes, I do." before a thousand butterflies would wrap their cocoon around me. I'd later emerge in a body that is a purest desert with rolling dunes, not this dark forest.

Back to reality...

After the moment, in both cases, something hurts, and I just don't know how to put it. I don't want it. I don't want to deal with it. I just want things to be easier, because I'm not strong like so many others. I don't have anything that would make me sure, I won't ever, but I'm just not comfortable with any of this. It's hard though. I now cannot deny this intense shock that I get from time to time. It happens. It's there. It's a thing.

I have to do something to help me find out. My hairline is retreating faster than the Brits from Dunkirk, and I need to know noooooww because wigs are legitimately scary. I'd rather not lean down and have my hair fall off! I know, I should worry about myself now, rather than this. I can't help it. My mind's eye takes me to the happiest and the saddest places in the same breath.

I can't really say much right now. I'm wrestling with this limited language in trying to express how I feel. See, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

" Isn't actually a word.

In other news, I have submitted a self referral to an NHS mental health clinic. I can only hope they deem me worthy of state funded therapy.

confuzzler · Post by **confuzzler** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:24 am

In West Fillydelphia wrote:It's getting... I don't want to say "worse". More intense is the best way to put it. More frequent. More frightening.

It's the little things.

I was cooking some spaghetti bolognese, only dad was getting a little too eager to eat it, so he was lending a hand in the closing stages. I just gracelessly dumped the spaghetti from the colander onto my plate, before pouring a lopsided helping of bolognese over the top. Then dad chuckles

"You cook like a man."

I was playing a really weird variant of Risk with my friends last night. The rulebook is a bit thick. It said "... on each of his territories..." In fact, it spoke in male terms all the way through. This didn't do anything. I wasn't even slightly thinking about it at this point. Instead I said, perhaps unconsciously "Well this assumes that everyone who'll play this game is a man." I still hadn't realised. The response I got...

"I don't see any women at this table, do you?"

While my knowledge tells me otherwise, something in my mind imagines the question being sincere. My mind's eye paints this scene, where I would answer "yes, I do." before a thousand butterflies would wrap their cocoon around me. I'd later emerge in a body that is a purest desert with rolling dunes, not this dark forest.

Back to reality...

After the moment, in both cases, something hurts, and I just don't know how to put it. I don't want it. I don't want to deal with it. I just want things to be easier, because I'm not strong like so many others. I don't have anything that would make me sure, I won't ever, but I'm just not comfortable with any of this. It's hard though. I now cannot deny this intense shock that I get from time to time. It happens. It's there. It's a thing.

I have to do something to help me find out. My hairline is retreating faster than the Brits from Dunkirk, and I need to know noooooww because wigs are legitimately scary. I'd rather not lean down and have my hair fall off! I know, I should worry about myself now, rather than this. I can't help it. My mind's eye takes me to the happiest and the saddest places in the same breath.

I can't really say much right now. I'm wrestling with this limited language in trying to express how I feel. See, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA " Isn't actually a word.

In other news, I have submitted a self referral to an NHS mental health clinic. I can only hope they deem me worthy of state funded therapy.

I know exactly what you mean. The little things always hurt. "Man up and do this." "Cut your hair and look like a man." "Clip your nails before someone thinks you're a woman." "You can't smell that smell because you're a man [seriously...]." "You are so lucky, you never have periods!" "I don't know why anyone would want to be pregnant." "You get to do stupid stuff because you're a dude." "Dude, don't be such a girl." "Well, since we're all men here..." Those are all things I've been told just in the last 6 months, sometimes by people who know I'm trans and just don't realize how much those things matter (the period one and the pregnancy one for the most part have been things my friends have said in a "you're so lucky you're trans so you don't have periods" way). I can't relate to the receding hairline, and I'm glad I can't, because I obsess enough about my face and all the things wrong with everything at once that I'm not sure I'd be able to handle going bald. If you ever need to talk, feel free to PM me. I'm always ready for listening.

Unrelated news, after 3 months of being official, I think I need to break up with my boyfriend. He's going way too fast and asking for way too much commitment, and I'm not ready for that kind of stuff yet. For example, I told myself and him that I wouldn't get married until I'm 25, and now he's talking about us being married by April and I'm not even 20 yet.

Hopefully he'll accept my reasoning and we can carry on as friends.

Brunellus · Post by **Brunellus** (?) » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:24 am

In West Fillydelphia wrote:...I just want things to be easier, because I'm not strong like so many others. I don't have anything that would make me sure, I won't ever, but I'm just not comfortable with any of this. It's hard though. I now cannot deny this intense shock that I get from time to time. It happens. It's there. It's a thing.

A few days ago, before four new pages erupted, I had just caught up with the thread and was thinking about posting about my own situation. I'm going to put that on hold for a bit, but in the meantime I think it's worth it to say that you don't know your own strength.

concerned reader · Post by **concerned reader** (?) » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:31 am

confuzzler wrote: Unrelated news, after 3 months of being official, I think I need to break up with my boyfriend. He's going way too fast and asking for way too much commitment, and I'm not ready for that kind of stuff yet. For example, I told myself and him that I wouldn't get married until I'm 25, and now he's talking about us being married by April and I'm not even 20 yet. Hopefully he'll accept my reasoning and we can carry on as friends.

Have you talked with him about that yet? It sounds more like you need to have a "define the relationship" moment. Just sit him down and go over where you both see the relationship at right now, and then where you'd like to see it in the future. That way you might be able to get him to slow down and stay on the same page as you.

In West Fillydelphia wrote: In other news, I have submitted a self referral to an NHS mental health clinic. I can only hope they deem me worthy of state funded therapy.

Hey, congrats on finally getting the courage to send in the referral! If you're strong enough to do that, then you're strong enough to do everything else. Like Brunnellus said, you're stronger than you think you are!

confuzzler · Post by **confuzzler** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:02 am

Concerned Reader wrote: Have you talked with him about that yet? It sounds more like you need to have a "define the relationship" moment. Just sit him down and go over where you both see the relationship at right now, and then where you'd like to see it in the future. That way you might be able to get him to slow down and stay on the same page as you.

Yes, I have. It didn't work. I was like "I don't want to get married until 25 and stuff" and he was like "ok," but then the next day it was all about how we'd be married and his mom having a new daughter in law would help with his coming out to them and stuff, and he basically didn't listen at all. Then he refused to let me pay for anything at all, and then complained that he was pulling all the weight in the relationship, when I honestly tried to have a part of it and he honestly wouldn't listen. Like I said, I'm just not ready for something like that, and my honest opinion is that I'm not sure if he is, either.