My Little Red Pen: Machetes are Friendship! [Editing Thread]

[Yuls]

This is a wholesale thread to request editing for your stories- fanfiction or original works!

By editing, I mean proper editing, not 'oh, I checked for spelling and grammar errors and fixed those for you', but 'I am going to tell you how to make your story better, where it needs to be done, and why these things need to be fixed, and I also checked your spelling and grammar errors and explain those too'.

Per forum rules, while help can be solicited in this thread publicly, please do not ask in here for help with items that have gore, excessive violence, shipping, or creepiness.

I'm willing to help on items that can not be posted here on a case by case basis if contacted over IRC and/or PM, but I reserve the right to be disgusted and refuse depending on the summary and content matter.

When posting a request, please give some basic information:

Type: Is it fanfiction or original fiction?
Summary: What can be expected in term of themes of the work
Word count: Rough estimate

When I'm ready for your story, I'll PM you to ask for the story.

Fanfiction Treatment:

If it is a fanfic, submit completed works for editing only. Having them shared in a google document with commenting enabled is the preferred method for fanfic, as it enables easy commenting.

The focus for editing for fanfiction will be on the content and substance of the story. This means spelling and grammar, the overall flow of the story, and general writing. This is a shorter process than is involved with original works.

Original Works Treatment:

Original works will be treated differently; please do not submit your piece for editing unless you have spare time to work on it, and the work in question has at least ten thousand words if it isn't completed.

Editing for original works is more in depth than what fanfic works will recieve, and will focus on the structure and development of the story. This will involve one on one editing, how to research and what to research when it is necessary, and detailed explanation of what works or does not work and why. The focus with original works is on improving the work as a whole, rather than focusing on spelling and grammar. Due to the difference in how original works are treated, submitting a .doc file for the work is fine.

Edit time:

Please don't consider something I'm editing done until I've done a final evaluation at the end of the document! It takes solid hours to fully edit something, even if is a fanfic and not an original work. Depending on how much help a story needs, it can take anywhere from ten minutes to three hours to just edit, concrit, and generally review and analyze one page! The more work a story needs, the longer it will take to edit!

Current Queue:

None yet!

Editors

Yuls: Edits all the things!
Redeye Flight: The Man from SPaG
Cuckoo: Winged Editor
Concerned Reader: Concerned About Dialogue, Description, and Characterization

(If others are interested in helping with this, I'll add you to this post, as well as any personal preferences- fanfic only? Original stories only?- or specialties you deal with- characterization? SPaG?- or how you plan to work with writers.)

[Yuls]

This is a second post just in case this somehow needs one for later.

[Redeye]

I'm a fairly competent SPaG Nazi, and an on-and-off writer besides. I'll offer my services to anyone who needs a solid scan.

[RagnarWhat's older? Unicorns, or stars? Incidentally, you should click on Ragnar's sig. Definitely a good idea.]

Oh good, a place where I can be on topic when I say "It's" is always a contraction, dammit.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

Why is there a minimum size for Original Fiction? Short stories come in all sorts of lengths, and imposing a minimum might encourage fluff filling just to meet the limit and get a critique.

Also, I might be up for looking over things as a story consultant as well. I have a bit more interest in Original Fiction than Fan Fiction, but that'll depend on the themes present.

[CuckooMy only regret is that I have Ponitis]

I'd be interested in being an editor, as well. I write for fun, mostly Fanfiction though I have a Sci-Fi idea that is still being solidified.

[Yuls]

Why is there a minimum size for Original Fiction? Short stories come in all sorts of lengths, and imposing a minimum might encourage fluff filling just to meet the limit and get a critique.

Also, I might be up for looking over things as a story consultant as well. I have a bit more interest in Original Fiction than Fan Fiction, but that'll depend on the themes present.

Good point. I had completely overlooked that, and was thinking with novel type projects in mind.

Want me to add you to the list?

I'd be interested in being an editor, as well. I write for fun, mostly Fanfiction though I have a Sci-Fi idea that is still being solidified.

Awesome. Will add you to the top.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

Good point. I had completely overlooked that, and was thinking with novel type projects in mind.

Want me to add you to the list?

Yeah go ahead. I'll try and be around enough to be helpful. I like to think I'm good with dialog, description, and characterization.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

Can we get fancy color titles like the Librarians? I need to feel special on the internet.

[Redeye]

Can we get fancy color titles like the Librarians? I need to feel special on the internet.

I think the thread needs something to DO, first.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

I think the thread needs something to DO, first.

Speaking of which, I'm not really sure how we would go about garnering interest. I get the distinct feeling that not many people browse this subforum.

[GaryOak]

I think the thread needs something to DO, first.

Too bad fanfics have to be 100% completed before submission for editing; I've got a good 25 thousand words (at least) to go on mine.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

Too bad fanfics have to be 100% completed before submission for editing; I've got a good 25 thousand words (at least) to go on mine.

Ah, I remember you posting about that in the "what are you working on" thread. I didn't want to comment there, but I guess I can here. I'll paste the post.

I've been hacking away at a fairly monstrous project for a few weeks now. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what kind of legitimate chance it has of showing up in this section due to its subject matter. It's a long, epic, grimdark story, but the grimdark elements are simply extremely tragic deaths; I'm avoiding using gore or horribly vivid details regarding death, so I'd personally classify it as borderline. Actually, it takes something like 20,000 words before you could even classify the story as "grimdark".

Right now I'm under halfway done with the story. Currently it's sitting at about 33,500 words, and I estimate it will be 70k at this rate, 80k if the last leg of the story has more to say than the first half. Yes, a lot of pretty crazy shit happens, but there is a very large amount of foreshadowing, careful planning, and transitions that leads into it without that stuff being out of left field (such as character deaths). Fortunately, shipping is right out; I don't much feel like writing about kissing ponies. ;x

There's a number of red flags in here for me, to the point where I wouldn't really want to invest myself in a 150-200 page story. Part of it's the length, but there's some other stuff as well.

Actually, it takes something like 20,000 words before you could even classify the story as "grimdark".

This is a flag for me, because if it takes 20k words before the conflict has consequences, then you may need to re-think your pacing and figure out what's important to the story. Side stories can be great and all, but if they distract or detract from the main conflict, then it can become a hassle to read.

Yes, a lot of pretty crazy shit happens, but there is a very large amount of foreshadowing, careful planning, and transitions that leads into it without that stuff being out of left field (such as character deaths).

This is another flag for me, because while foreshadowing and planning can be good when used right, they can also turn the story into a slog of references and call backs and Chekhov guns, much like the webcomic Homestuck is now.

Basically what this guy said:

I mean, I'm not trying to say that Homestuck's pacing couldn't be worse - I don't actually think Hussie is going to die from heart disease before he ever gets around to wrapping up half the plot threads he's started - but if the average reader finishes a chapter in your story and thinks "I have no idea why time was spent on any of that, but maybe it'll somehow become relevant in some theoretical future chapter", you really are doing something wrong. Everything in a story should have a reason for happening where it does; if it happens to have other reasons for happening that become apparent later, then that's fine, but that shouldn't be the only reason.

[GaryOak]

You raise some great and valid points, my good sir. I'll do my best to address them!

On the topic of pacing, I honestly think that the story might be progressing too fast and could use some more content and detail. It sounds funny when I'm on track for 70 thousand words or more, but everything serves a purpose of some sort in the main, overarching plot. When I think about the story plot-wise, I break it down into 5 "acts", much like a play. The first two acts have their own main story arcs, but each of those arcs are important factors into the story as a whole. So far, I have not received any negative feedback on them, and I strongly believe they're vital to the whole plot.

I cannot agree more about your foreshadowing point. Thus far, I haven't had anyone that's read my story saying that I did a bad job or did too much foreshadowing. None of it has sent anybody back to the earlier chapters. Rather, a lot of what I say and do in the story suddenly makes sense when a major plot twist occurs. Thankfully nobody's been left confused after anything major has happened, including the story's climax at the end of the third act. Currently I'm working on the buildup for the final conflict and the resolution of the plot. As of writing this, I've just begun act 4, which is the buildup to the final confilct, with act 5 obviously being the resolution of the story.

Overall, I've had roughly half a dozen people read everything I've written (over 45 thousand words), and so far all of the feedback has been pretty positive. I've been working on this for over a month, plus an additional month of the ideas running around in my brain, so I didn't want to post anything here on this subject until I had a solid chunk of it done with a lot of opinions from people to back it up. What I've gathered can be summarized something like this:

- They love my OC character; he's deep and complex enough and avoids the "Gary Sue" pitfalls and avoids being the clone of any of the mane 6.
- The plot intrigued them enough to want to know more and read on, quite eagerly in most cases.
- The most tragic part of the story so far has moved at least one person to tears.
- I've heard from many people that my dialogue feels extremely natural, a lot like what they'd imagine the characters to say in an actual episode of the show.
- I work well enough within the canon that stuff I've made up doesn't conflict with known Equestrian history or geography (I use the map of Equestria and the MLP wiki quite a lot).
- I personally can't stand gore, so while there is violence that involves stuff like battles to the death, evisceration, decapitation, etc, I don't go into detail. During a fight scene, I'll simply say a pony was decapitated and leave it at that.
- Because I don't get into anything R-rated or sexual, I believe I'm fine in the site's "no creepy" rule department. Some truly evil stuff definitely happens, though.
- The reactions to the climax of the story and the beginning of act four have so far been unanimously "Holy fuck this is epic! Tragic, but epic."

What I feel I need to improve (why I'm posting here in the first place):

- Sentence structure could use work in places.
- Certain parts of dialogue could use some tweaking.
- The story could be fleshed out more and made longer.

I'm sorry if this came out overly long or anything; but I felt the need to respond to your post as thoroughly as possible. I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion over PMs/send anyone a pastebin of a chunk of the story over PM should they request it.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

What I feel I need to improve (why I'm posting here in the first place):

- Sentence structure could use work in places.
- Certain parts of dialogue could use some tweaking.
- The story could be fleshed out more and made longer.

I'm sorry if this came out overly long or anything; but I felt the need to respond to your post as thoroughly as possible. I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion over PMs/send anyone a pastebin of a chunk of the story over PM should they request it.

I don't really have the time to get intensely involved with a story of that length right now. Though if you want me to look over the dialog, I'd be up for that. Just PM me the dialog with a little bit of context and notes on why you feel it isn't working, and I'll see what advice I can give.

On the story needing to be longer, I'd disagree. Even if you're trying to write a book length fanfic, there's probably a lot that could be cut or trimmed down for better flow. There's a lot that can be told through implied storytelling. Things that are referenced and placed in a timeline, but that you don't have to go into detail on. What should get the most focus is the core of the story: The main character and their three main conflicts.

Every story has at the least three basic conflicts. An internal conflict, and external conflict, and a relationship conflict.

• The internal conflict is how the character's thought process changes over time. Maybe they grow from being a misanthropic shut in to loving life and people. Or maybe it's something as simple as just realizing that they have a place in the world.
• The external conflict is the overarching plot. It can be as simple as going to the store to get some milk or as complex as a war. In all cases it should be related to the main character. The one who is the focus of the story.
• The Relationship conflict is how the relationship between the character and another changes over time. It doesn't have to be a romantic relationship. The way the character interacts with his parents works just as well, for example.

All of these conflicts have a Beginning, Middle, and End. Could you make up an outline for your story and post it here? The formatting should be as follows:

Code: Select all

External
B -- G.A.R.Y., or Generic Archive Research Yielder, is let go from his job due to being outdated by 6 months.

M -- G.A.R.Y. enters the dangerous world of job hunting, but it's difficult due to his outmoded status. He has trouble holding down the jobs he does find, so he begins bar hopping. At the bars and even at this jobs he helps people with their personal problems.

E -- G.A.R.Y. is able to find work at a low key bar downtown as a bartender and amateur psychiatrist.

Internal

B-- G.A.R.Y. begins to feel that perhaps his perception of the workforce is wrong. Maybe he is worthless, so he begins looking into ways to re-invent himself.

M-- G.A.R.Y. continues in a downward spiral as his self worth plummets. He’s unable to hold down a job, and his failure to gain friendship with SALLY further decreases his self image.

E -- G.A.R.Y. realizes that his functional ability to interact with humans is a great advantage over the current batch of Automata.

Relationship

B -- G.A.R.Y. has a vested interest in S.A.L.L.Y. (Sales And Logistics Load Yielder), but she only has eyes for the new models, with their exaflop processors and petabit throughput.

M -- Even after being let go from his job, G.A.R.Y. continues to visit S.A.L.L.Y.. It grows to the point where S.A.L.L.Y. finally just explicitly spells out that she has no interest in him.

E -- G.A.R.Y. realizes that he has grown distant from the currant age of automata, and finds solace in the human relationships he builds at the bars he frequents and the jobs he has worked. Culminating in his being hired to work at one of the bars he frequented.


Doing stuff like this can help you realize whats important to the story, and what you can spend less time on.

[FightingDreamerBrony For Life]

OK, so I'm doing a story with a FIM version of the first G1 villain Tirac (and yes, he will have the Rainbow of Darkness). It's another "ancient evil awakens to ruin everypony's life", but I want to make this as distinct from Discord as possible. First and foremost, Tirac gets out of his imprisonment entirely on his own, and his attitude is one of conquest rather than gleeful malice. And he *can't* be beat by the Elements of Harmony alone; the girls have to journey to find the Rainbow of Unity (tentative name, but I didn't want to just call it the Rainbow of Light) that will combine with the Elements and counter the Rainbow of Darkness. Along the way, they'll be helped by Luna (Tirac defeats Celestia and imprisons her early on, but Luna manages to escape), Zecora, and possibly some others.

What I'm really struggling with right now is how to start the story and the dialogue. Right now, I have a prologue where Tirac outlines his backstory and motivations as he prepares to break free, and then I'm stuck. I'm finding that writing Tirac's dialogue and thought processes is really fun (he's turning out to be like a ponyfied Darkseid), but I can't get a handle on the ponies themselves.

The tone of the story will be dark to some degree, but only a little moreso than the show. I'm not going to be having lots of gore or death, just a dark villain and some slightly more intense action and violence.

I'll post a rough draft at some point, but are there any suggestions otherwise?

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

OK, so I'm doing a story with a FIM version of the first G1 villain Tirac (and yes, he will have the Rainbow of Darkness). It's another "ancient evil awakens to ruin everypony's life", but I want to make this as distinct from Discord as possible. First and foremost, Tirac gets out of his imprisonment entirely on his own, and his attitude is one of conquest rather than gleeful malice. And he *can't* be beat by the Elements of Harmony alone; the girls have to journey to find the Rainbow of Unity (tentative name, but I didn't want to just call it the Rainbow of Light) that will combine with the Elements and counter the Rainbow of Darkness. Along the way, they'll be helped by Luna (Tirac defeats Celestia and imprisons her early on, but Luna manages to escape), Zecora, and possibly some others.

This looks like a good summary for a basic adventure story, which is good. I always liked adventure stories.

What I'm really struggling with right now is how to start the story and the dialogue. Right now, I have a prologue where Tirac outlines his backstory and motivations as he prepares to break free, and then I'm stuck. I'm finding that writing Tirac's dialogue and thought processes is really fun (he's turning out to be like a ponyfied Darkseid), but I can't get a handle on the ponies themselves.

How are you going to be writing it? Third person omniscient? Third Limited? Or are you going to hop around from character to character?
Something that would be a lot harder, but that would set you apart from the myriad of other pony defeats evil stories out there, is to try and write the whole thing from Tirac's POV. That way you don't have to precisely worry about how you write the ponies, because now you get to describe them through his perception. A sort of unreliable narrator.

[FightingDreamerBrony For Life]

I was planning to do a third-person omniscient narrative (remind me what limited third-person is again?), to be honest, though hopping around from character to character seems like it could save me some hassle. I could even do that with Tirac, though I don't think I'd do the whole story like that.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

I was planning to do a third-person omniscient narrative (remind me what limited third-person is again?), to be honest, though hopping around from character to character seems like it could save me some hassle. I could even do that with Tirac, though I don't think I'd do the whole story like that.

Limited is where the narrator only knows what the character it's following knows. Omniscient is where the narrator knows everything.

Jumping from character to character can be good, but it does have some pitfalls. One is that it can interrupt the flow of the story if the transitions aren't handled well.

For a story like this, I think that a third person limited that jumps between the characters in different sections may be good. It lets you get in the head of most of the characters in a relatively short amount of time, and you can experiment with how each character views situations differently.

[FightingDreamerBrony For Life]

OK, I think I'll do that hopping around limited then. Thanks for the advice, and I'll be sure to post my first draft here.

[GaryOak]

I don't really have the time to get intensely involved with a story of that length right now. Though if you want me to look over the dialog, I'd be up for that. Just PM me the dialog with a little bit of context and notes on why you feel it isn't working, and I'll see what advice I can give.

[...]

Doing stuff like this can help you realize whats important to the story, and what you can spend less time on.

That was actually pretty helpful! <3

Since I haven't finished the first draft of the fic yet, I have refrained from combing through it for particular areas that I feel need improving. Right now it's at a "it just needs to be about 20% better" phase. Before I actively seek editors to overview the finished product, I intend to proofread it myself and make any tweaks/additions so hopefully I can snag a lot of the basic stuff. Anything editing-wise done before that happens just makes my proofreading phase easier. I definitely respect what you're saying though; it's a pretty massive undertaking to look at something that will end up being close to the length of a legitimate novel.

Those three conflicts you mentioned actually pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to my fic. There is an internal conflict within one or more of the characters that plays a huge role in the story and a good amount of time is spent building on that confilct. The external conflict is a lot more subtle. It's hinted at for a long time and there are major conflicts that happen before the true external conflict takes place, but each of the "minor story arcs" play a huge role in setting up the climax of the story. Once the climax happens, the external conflict is obvious and becomes the main focus of the story. How and why it happens is only significant because of the buildup. Finally, I do have one major relationship conflict which also plays a big role in the grand scheme of things.

I'll spoiler tag this stuff so it doesn't give anything away for those that are actually interested in reading my work once it's done or wanting a surprise when they look the story over. A lot of what's in the spoiler text seems really outrageous, but remember, I take great pains to ensure that it's sufficiently built up and believable.

I'll start with a bio for my OC:

Greyhoof (unicorn disguise) // King Cosmo

Type: Alicorn, older brother of Celestia and Luna
Coat: Gray
Mane: Teal and green (Greyhoof) // orange, dark purple, and a stripe parting the two colours that shifts between the entire colour spectrum
Cutie mark: Concealed (Greyhoof) // Comet overshadowing a sun and crescent moon
Eyes: Orange
Disposition: Evil
Disguise: Full-body cloak that conceals his cutie mark and wings. Greyhoof is heavily portrayed as one of the two heroes and protagonists of the story along with Twilight. He has hidden himself, biding his time, ever since his defeat by his sisters over a thousand years previous, when he was presumed dead.
This character is heavily modeled after Emperor Palpatine.

External Conflict, the main plot -- King Cosmo seeks to rule Equestria for himself, killing all who stand in his way.

B -- Greyhoof shows up in Ponyville to study advanced magic with Twilight. Much of the beginning of the story builds on the good side of his character, saving the ponies from a masticore and assisting them in their endeavours.

M -- Greyhoof reveals himself as King Cosmo in Canterlot over halfway through the story. This is the plot's climax when, with Twilight's help, he kills Princess Celestia and claims the throne of Canterlot.

E -- Using the Elements of Harmony, Cosmo is weakened enough for Luna to kill him at the end of the story.

Internal Conflict, Twilight

B-- Greyhoof tells Twilight the legend of King Cosmo while Twilight is seeking to learn more about Princess Celestia's magical abilities. Greyhoof twists the truth so that it portrays Celestia as evil (murdered her brother so she could rule in his place).

M-- Twilight becomes evil because she is convinced that Greyhoof is the good guy and doesn't want Celestia to kill him. The whole transformation process where she turns evil is much akin to Star Wars Episode 3 where Anakin cuts off Mace Windu's hand. The internal conflict between good and evil within Twilight is lost at this point, and link excised inspired it quite a lot. Twilight basically goes through the "Babadi" treatment from DBZ: by allowing evil into her heart, Cosmo harnesses that evil to make her more powerful, except that evil now controls her, making this internal conflict into something reminiscent of Darth Vader.

E -- When all seems lost, the other five Elements of Harmony are used to break Twilight free of Cosmo's influence, which allows her to wield her own Element to defeat Cosmo. This is quite similar to when Darth Vader redeems himself by chucking Palpatine into the Death Star's power core, except that Twilight lives through it all.

(PLATONIC) Relationship -- Twilight/Greyhoof

B -- Twilight and Greyhoof become close friends quite quickly, as they are kindred spirits. Both share a passion for studying magic, except Greyhoof's background is a lot more obscure, as part of his disguise is that he's nomadic and having never experienced true friendship because of never being in one place for a long period of time.

M -- Greyhoof does heroic things to solidify this relationship between them, such as saving Twilight from a masticore, doing all he can to cure Twilight of the venom that she was injected with when the masticore stung her, etc. Their relationship is further established when Greyhoof is accused of being the one abducting ponies and killing them and Twilight stops it nothing to free him from prison.

E -- At the end of the day, Greyhoof was only creating this relationship so that when the time was right, he could count on Twilight to help him kill Celestia, as Greyhoof knows that he isn't powerful enough to defeat Celestia by himself. This plan was formed when Twilight got her cutie mark and hatched Spike during the first Sonic Rainboom from season 1; Cosmo identified her potential and sought to use it as a weapon with which he could use to achieve his own ends.

There's quite a bit left unsaid; the plot is fairly complex and there's quite a bit going on at once. I guess I'm a sucker for the whole "betrayal from within" aspect of stories, where the reader ends up cheering for the wrong team for half of the narrative.

I think that covers the basics of the plot. That being said, there are quite a few other aspects to it which really help flesh out and solidify the main conflict.

[FightingDreamerBrony For Life]

Huh, that could be neat, Gary. Any thoughts on my story idea above?

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

I guess I could post a first draft of one of my own works as well. It's an Original Fiction short story that I'd like some opinions on. I get the feeling I shouldn't post a link to the story, unless a mod gives the Okay. In the mean time, hit me up with a PM and I'll link you.


Title: Lotka Volterra
Type: Original Fiction
Summary: It's a sci-fi character study of sorts with some detective, loss, family, revenge, and companion creature themes thrown in.
Word count: 6030 words.
Content Warnings: Strong Language, Implied Drug Use, Implied violence. The Detective gets something embedded in his chest at one point, which has a fair bit of description, but it's not over the top.

The basics of the story are all there, but I know there's some meat missing from the bones. I need an outside eye to help me find what could be improved, and what could be removed.

[Orange Fluffy Sheep]

story

Well, since you haven't posted any actual text I can't say for certain, but between the influences you've stated and the details given it doesn't sound like it is going to get past approval here.

But much less ambiguous is the image you linked to. It was decided when the image was first made that we aren't having any of it so it has been removed.

I don't want people thinking they can bend the rules just because these aren't finished works.

[GaryOak]

OK, so I'm doing a story with a FIM version of the first G1 villain Tirac (and yes, he will have the Rainbow of Darkness).

[...]

I'll post a rough draft at some point, but are there any suggestions otherwise?

That sounds like a really cool idea, actually. "Ancient evil" will get old eventually (I'm quite guilty of this myself), but as long as it's kept fresh then it'll be good. One of my favourite aspects of an "epic" style of story is the villain. I absolutely love villains, especially the lesser-used archetypes. It sounds like you've got a pretty solid villain going on.

At least you have a prologue done; all you need to do now is kind of storyboard out your conflicts. The formula Concirned Reader had me follow could help you out a lot when figuring out where to begin once you've set up your bad guy. One approach I took which may or may not work for you is to start it out in a similar fashion to a normal MLP episode, which can be any type (in my case, adventure), then you can transition into the main plot as long as your beginning plays a role later on. Or you could simply start things off by having your villain just wreck shit and be like "banf, here's a conflict".

I guess your worst enemy here is the sheer amount of options you have.

As for your problem for getting a handle on the ponies, I actually found it to be fairly easy when I was writing. Throw them in a situation, figure out how you want it to develop, then write the dialog accordingly and always think "which pony would respond to what and in what manner would they typically respond?" Stereotype dialog is something to keep in mind, though; we don't want to see: Twilight - something smart, Rainbow - something adventure-y/tomboyish, Fluttershy - something over the top shy, etc.

Sorry if my thoughts seem scattered; I've had my second super-long weekend in a row so I'm pretty tired. Hopefully I was of some use, though.

I don't want people thinking they can bend the rules just because these aren't finished works.

I've thoroughly read the rules for both the forum and the submitting of fanfiction before I mentioned what I was working on. If you could identify which rule I'm supposedly breaking, I'd be delighted to hear it, as I cannot for the life of me fathom which rule I'm violating.

On the image: only a very certain part of it was used for inspiration; I don't describe that image itself. Remember, there is absolutely no: gore (there IS blood and other stuff, but no vivid death scenes or entrails or any such shit), shipping (not even an awkward "X and Y almost kiss but it's broken up by something" is used), eroticism, or even a swear word.

[FightingDreamerBrony For Life]

Thanks, Gary. Input from you folks is always helpful.

[Orange Fluffy Sheep]

I've thoroughly read the rules for both the forum and the submitting of fanfiction before I mentioned what I was working on. If you could identify which rule I'm supposedly breaking, I'd be delighted to hear it, as I cannot for the life of me fathom which rule I'm violating.

On the image: only a very certain part of it was used for inspiration; I don't describe that image itself. Remember, there is absolutely no: gore (there IS blood and other stuff, but no vivid death scenes or entrails or any such shit), shipping (not even an awkward "X and Y almost kiss but it's broken up by something" is used), eroticism, or even a swear word.

Just making sure, since you were getting close to the line. Citing an image we don't allow as an inspiration got me nervous as well, though I admit it was months ago when we last discussed that one.

I just don't want people to think the rules are relaxed any for this thread. They aren't.

[Opposing FarceDon't you smile at my faceSpit on my backDo you kiss your mother with a mouth like that?]

Really, the biggest question I have for you is whether your story really needs to be a fanfic at all. Are you utilizing the characters and setting in a way that really enhances the story, or are they just a level of aesthetic gloss that saves you from having to develop a setting and characters from scratch? I can't really say for sure from just an outline, but it seems to me that you may be better off adopting some of the broader themes/archetypes- the benevolent god-queen, her faithful student, the power of friendship- into a setting of your own devising. Your story is different enough from the feel of the series itself that I think it would benefit if you were able to exert more authorial control over the world and the characters, even if you would need to dedicate a fair chunk of time and effort to world building.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

I've thoroughly read the rules for both the forum and the submitting of fanfiction before I mentioned what I was working on. If you could identify which rule I'm supposedly breaking, I'd be delighted to hear it, as I cannot for the life of me fathom which rule I'm violating.

On the image: only a very certain part of it was used for inspiration; I don't describe that image itself. Remember, there is absolutely no: gore (there IS blood and other stuff, but no vivid death scenes or entrails or any such shit), shipping (not even an awkward "X and Y almost kiss but it's broken up by something" is used), eroticism, or even a swear word.

Basically, even though you don't have detailed descriptions of death or dismemberment, just the fact that characters are dying/being decapitated is a flag in the acceptance policy. Another issue is that while it may be an interesting thematic choice, having twilight kill Celestia doesn't fit with the theme of the show in any way shape or form. Even if she was brainwashed or Discord'd, I don't think she'd be able to overcome her sort of idol worship of Celestia. I really can't see any way that this series of events could unfold and her still be Twilight Sparkle. Who would she trust more? The words of someone who she's known for only a few weeks, or someone she's known her whole life? Even if Greyhoofs credibility is raised by him saving her life, that's not exactly an uncommon occurrence for Twilight. Pretty much all of her friends have saved her life at some point. At an even deeper level though, How would Twilight react to the story told by Greyhoof? In my mind, the first thing she would do is run through all of her books, and upon finding nothing to back up his claims she would go straight to Celestia herself and ask her in person.

And while this doesn't make your story inherently bad, it does raise the question OpposingFarce posed. Why is this about ponies? You've basically taken several pony characters, and applied heavy star wars archetypes to them, and then thrown them into a situation that doesn't feel organic at all.

[GaryOak]

Really, the biggest question I have for you is whether your story really needs to be a fanfic at all.
[...]

A fair question, but I'm going to be using most of the characters by the end of the story as well as a good chunk of the world.

Basically, even though you don't have detailed descriptions of death or dismemberment, just the fact that characters are dying/being decapitated is a flag in the acceptance policy. Another issue is that while it may be an interesting thematic choice, having twilight kill Celestia doesn't fit with the theme of the show in any way shape or form. Even if she was brainwashed or Discord'd, I don't think she'd be able to overcome her sort of idol worship of Celestia. I really can't see any way that this series of events could unfold and her still be Twilight Sparkle. Who would she trust more? The words of someone who she's known for only a few weeks, or someone she's known her whole life? Even if Greyhoofs credibility is raised by him saving her life, that's not exactly an uncommon occurrence for Twilight. Pretty much all of her friends have saved her life at some point. At an even deeper level though, How would Twilight react to the story told by Greyhoof? In my mind, the first thing she would do is run through all of her books, and upon finding nothing to back up his claims she would go straight to Celestia herself and ask her in person.

And while this doesn't make your story inherently bad, it does raise the question OpposingFarce posed. Why is this about ponies? You've basically taken several pony characters, and applied heavy star wars archetypes to them, and then thrown them into a situation that doesn't feel organic at all.

On the Twilight thing: evidence essentially mounts up higher and higher that points to Celestia being evil. There's a series of abductions in Ponyville, which turn out to be murders, which culiminates in the tragic death of one of the characters, but the pony responsible for it was under an extremely powerful mind control spell. The next day, an Ursa Major rampages through the Everfree Forest, heading for Ponyville, under a similar spell and the blame is pinned on Celestia. As for Twilight, she honestly doesn't do too much; she attacks Celestia once as she is about to kill Cosmo. The attack splinters her horn (that's where the image came into play) and Cosmo does the rest. The betrayal is more of a "lashed out in the heat of the moment" sort of thing; it's not at all premeditated or sustained. Also, Twilight and the OC are the only "Star Wars incluenced" characters in the story, and Twilight is still Twilight, she just goes through the internal conflicts and falls to evil until she is saved by the other Elements of Harmony.

[Captain DinkyMusic brings wings to the mind,flight to the imagination,soul to the universe,and life to everything.]

- I personally can't stand gore, so while there is violence that involves stuff like battles to the death, evisceration, decapitation, etc, I don't go into detail. During a fight scene, I'll simply say a pony was decapitated and leave it at that.

You should have been shut down right here without any chance to appeal. I dont care how little detail you go into. Simply saying 'Oh, and a pony was decapitated' is detail enough.

That said, thanks for the laugh.

[Concerned ReaderI didn't inhale]

OK, I think I'll do that hopping around limited then. Thanks for the advice, and I'll be sure to post my first draft here.

Oop, sorry for taking so long replying to this. Got kinda lost in the thread.

What I'm really struggling with right now is how to start the story and the dialogue. Right now, I have a prologue where Tirac outlines his backstory and motivations as he prepares to break free, and then I'm stuck. I'm finding that writing Tirac's dialogue and thought processes is really fun (he's turning out to be like a ponyfied Darkseid), but I can't get a handle on the ponies themselves.

Since you're going with the third person limited, that makes this a little bit easier. For starting the story after the prologue, I'd suggest doing an in media res introduction. Just jump right into something that is happening in the day of the main characters. Show the basic interactions between the characters and a basic overview of a day in their life, and that way you have a juxtaposition when Tirac shows up. You shouldn't delay his reveal too long, because he's partially the focus of the story.

[Opposing FarceDon't you smile at my faceSpit on my backDo you kiss your mother with a mouth like that?]

A fair question, but I'm going to be using most of the characters by the end of the story as well as a good chunk of the world.

Perhaps, but you're kind of missing the point of the question there. You may be using most of the characters and a good chunk of the world, but the question is whether or not the story really benefits from using these characters and this world. To be honest, it seems to me that your story doesn't integrate with the setting or characters of FiM very well; based solely on the outline, it really looks like you're just hijacking the show and running off in your own direction with it, which isn't the right way to go about this. Fanfiction should be a challenge to you, as a writer, to craft something that fits the universe of a property that isn't yours and where you don't really have full authorial control; you should be deferring to the original work and accepting its rules (from the basic aesthetics like "everypony" or characters having hooves to deeper, more abstract things like its optimism and character-driven storytelling), not using it as a shortcut so you don't have to craft your own universe.

Plus, while he was kind of a dick about it, Dinky does have a point. Having characters killed and decapitated doesn't really belong in a story about magical candy-colored ponies, no matter how you slice it, and on the whole it really seems like the story would work better in a setting that isn't this one. I'm not suggesting that you simply carbon-copy stuff from the show and change the names so it's not about ponies, of course, but I really think you should try taking just the basic ideas that your story needs to function and creating your own, unique interpretation of them. Building a world from the ground up is a lot more rewarding and gives you much more room to be creative.

[BattyBovine♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ walk walk ♪♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ walk walk ♪♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ and it shows how good i feel ♪]

I have to agree with everyone else, Gary. I don't particularly like the desire to make the world of Equestria darker, not just in this instance, but as a whole. The whole reason I like this show is because it has none of that kind of content, and I don't like it in my fanfiction either. That's not to say I don't think it's ever appropriate to be less colourful and cheerful than the series proper, just that stories with this much emphasis on dark themes are so far detached from the tone of the show that it's entirely unrecognisable. This sounds like it could be a good story, but I don't think it should have anything to do with ponies, and I certainly don't think something like that needs to be showcased here.

As far as details of evisceration and such, a story I submitted a while ago spent all of two or three short sentences making the implication that someone might be a homosexual, as a method of completely avoiding any possibility of shipping. It was still rejected. I doubt yours would pass through inspection no matter how little detail you stated.

[Captain DinkyMusic brings wings to the mind,flight to the imagination,soul to the universe,and life to everything.]

Plus, while he was kind of a dick about it...

Im sorry but this back and forth has lasted long enough. Sometimes being a dick is the only way to get your point across. I mean no offense to Gary, but him defending his story when it clearly doesnt belong here is going to last a while unless someone brings him back down to earth.

[GaryOak]

No worries. There's not technically a rule against violence or even character death because I think it would be dumb to have one--

(snippet from PM)

You should have been shut down right here without any chance to appeal. I dont care how little detail you go into. Simply saying 'Oh, and a pony was decapitated' is detail enough.

That said, thanks for the laugh.

Please, if you're going to be overly anal and contribute nothing, take your vacuous posts elsewhere. By this same philosophy, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings should have been shut down right away, because I don't depict anything worse than what you'd see in one of those novels or movies.

Isn't part of being a brony giving things a chance and approaching them with an open mind and not being judgmental? If I'm not breaking any rules after those with the authority to make such a call haven't suggested otherwise, then it's not your place to attempt to enforce rules, nor is it mine.

Building a world from the ground up is a lot more rewarding and gives you much more room to be creative.

Well, to a degree I am running off with situations and it's definitely not something you'd see as part of the show, but there have been other widly good fanfics that have done crazy shit before. Part of it is, I guess, I'm incapable of telling a story that isn't world-threateningly epic. I guess 5 years of playing WoW and playing Blizzard games since 95 or 96 have taken their toll on my imagination, heh. At first, TBH, it starts out kind of like a MLP "adventure" episode before it transitions into a murder mystery, then into the massive-scale conflict. I've dabbled in writing before, which was a completely original fantasy, which I may pursue, depending on how well this fic turns out, maybe.

I have to agree with everyone else, Gary.
[...]
I doubt yours would pass through inspection no matter how little detail you stated.

Honestly, who knows at the end of the day. If it breaks no rules, I see no reason for rejection unless its of poor quality, which just means I need to write better. So far I haven't received any criticism on the angle of twisting it into something unrecognizible from what it's derived from (this is from people that have read the whole thing). Obviously I know it's contrivertial and not a typical fic, so if grimdark/epic isn't your cup of tea, don't read it. I won't be offended. Nothing appeals to everyone.

[Opposing FarceDon't you smile at my faceSpit on my backDo you kiss your mother with a mouth like that?]

By this same philosophy, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings should have been shut down right away, because I don't depict anything worse than what you'd see in one of those novels or movies.

That's not really a fair comparison. The difference is that Harry Potter, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings take place in universes where death and violence aren't out of place and where the characters aren't magical candy-colored ponies.

Honestly, who knows at the end of the day. If it breaks no rules, I see no reason for rejection unless its of poor quality, which just means I need to write better. So far I haven't received any criticism on the angle of twisting it into something unrecognizible from what it's derived from (this is from people that have read the whole thing). Obviously I know it's contrivertial and not a typical fic, so if grimdark/epic isn't your cup of tea, don't read it. I won't be offended. Nothing appeals to everyone.

To be honest with you, I think this is one of the ways that this community differs from most. Places like EqD are totally fine with that sort of thing, but I doubt that any of us here are really looking for "grimdark" or "epic" in a pony story, and in fact most of us actively dislike those things for all of the reasons myself and others have already stated.

Actually, let me clarify that because I suspect I've taken it for granted that this was already clear: we can all agree that there's nothing wrong with a story that's dark and/or epic, but most people here will probably tell you they don't like things that are grimdark and epic and also about ponies.

[BattyBovine♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ walk walk ♪♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ walk walk ♪♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ and it shows how good i feel ♪]

Honestly, who knows at the end of the day. If it breaks no rules, I see no reason for rejection unless its of poor quality, which just means I need to write better. So far I haven't received any criticism on the angle of twisting it into something unrecognizible from what it's derived from (this is from people that have read the whole thing). Obviously I know it's contrivertial and not a typical fic, so if grimdark/epic isn't your cup of tea, don't read it. I won't be offended. Nothing appeals to everyone.

I certainly agree with all of this, and I hope you didn't get the wrong idea from what I said. All I'm really doing is speculating and offering an opinion. I happen to be more offended by violence than anything sexual, and I respect the fact that I'm probably in the minority in that case. If your story happened to pass the pre-reading phase, that would be fine by me; I trust the pre-readers here to make the right decisions. I'm just saying that I'm not sure it would happen, especially since you described the story yourself as "grimdark," which is almost certainly against the rules.

I don't mean to argue with you, because I'm not terribly bothered by any of this. I'm simply offering my opinion on what I think fanfiction should be, and I still think that based on what you've described, this barely counts. I've felt the same way about other, less dark stories, and even some that have been posted here. It's not personal, or specific to this instance.

I probably shouldn't have said anything, but sometimes I just feel like saying things.

[FightingDreamerBrony For Life]

Oop, sorry for taking so long replying to this. Got kinda lost in the thread.



Since you're going with the third person limited, that makes this a little bit easier. For starting the story after the prologue, I'd suggest doing an in media res introduction. Just jump right into something that is happening in the day of the main characters. Show the basic interactions between the characters and a basic overview of a day in their life, and that way you have a juxtaposition when Tirac shows up. You shouldn't delay his reveal too long, because he's partially the focus of the story.

Thanks again!

...Man, these arguments about "dark" content have made me decide to *slightly* retool my story. Tirac's still going to be bad news, but I'm going to make the action less about violence and more about danger. I can still have ponies be hurt if it's not necessarily life-threatening, right?

And I was going to have scenes where we see the ponies enslaved by Tirac and his minions, complete with shackles and whips, but now I think I'll just have my original idea of Tirac having the ponies round up and split into groups of parents and children to begin the work he wants done. This might make him more interesting, too; he's a tyrant, but he doesn't see the need to be unnecessarily cruel (in his mind) since, well, he's already in charge and there's nothing the ponies can really do about it.

[BattyBovine♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ walk walk ♪♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ walk walk ♪♪ i got a new way to walk ♪♪ and it shows how good i feel ♪]

...Man, these arguments about "dark" content have made me decide to *slightly* retool my story. Tirac's still going to be bad news, but I'm going to make the action less about violence and more about danger. I can still have ponies be hurt if it's not necessarily life-threatening, right?

Don't be too discouraged; without the threat of injury, there's very little conflict. It's a difficult thing to differentiate sometimes, but there is a difference between implying gruesome death and implying uncertain demise.

And I was going to have scenes where we see the ponies enslaved by Tirac and his minions, complete with shackles and whips, but now I think I'll just have my original idea of Tirac having the ponies round up and split into groups of parents and children to begin the work he wants done. This might make him more interesting, too; he's a tyrant, but he doesn't see the need to be unnecessarily cruel (in his mind) since, well, he's already in charge and there's nothing the ponies can really do about it.

I don't think the shackles and such would be an issue; they did appear in the original series, after all. In the end, the decision is up to you, but from the sound of it your story's content seems just fine. If I were you, I would ask myself this: Could it be broadcast on Saturday mornings on a channel like The Hub or Cartoon Network? That's not a strict rule, and it's okay to push those limits a bit, but it's a good measuring stick, and something I would personally be careful to consider.