LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Bremen (?) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:40 am
Remember that Colorado baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Remember how his case went to the Supreme Court? That case wrapped up today.

In aa 7-2 decision, the Court found in favor of the baker, saying that the state of Colorado was violating his Constitutionally-guaranteed right of religious freedom :negative:
Mr Big's link explains it better, but the short of it is that they did not find that Colorado was violating his Constitutionally guaranteed right of religious freedom, but rather found that the state was discriminating against his religious beliefs because they let other bakers refuse to bake cakes for same sex couples and in their own documents made their disdain for his religious beliefs clear (which is, whatever your opinion of religion might be, a big constitutional no-no).

While they don't rule on whether the state would be allowed to make non-discriminatory protections of same-sex couples, the wording of the opinion actually comes off as highly supportive of it.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:13 pm

Yeah, when I wrote that I was putting it together from NPR, the NYT, and a couple other sources that were literally just breaking. I wonder now if the mainstream media had mostly pre-written a couple articles, one for if the couple won and one if the baker won, then had to go back and revise it once it became clear that the Supreme Court kicked the actual issue down the road instead of actually ruling on it.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Madeline (?) » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:07 am

theGECK wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:20 am
Just to build on this statement, this is an argument I've had with my parents, spouse, other loved ones, etc. Even if I have brain things going on (parents are unwilling to accept that the scientific studies might have merit) that doesn't mean I should change things about my body. It means that I'm unique and wonderful. Instead of taking any steps toward transition, I should find those qualities and embrace them. That would fit the natural order of how I was born and also not make things awkward and inconvenient for everybody else. Because they don't know how to just tell people that I'm doing fine when they want to gossip about me instead.

Even if they agreed with the science, they would still disagree with the actions and the morals I'm presenting as being the way to go through things. The science has no impact on their day to day actions. No matter what the science says, it reinforces the beliefs and the actions they had already decided upon.
I know this is an old post, but I found this to still be relevant. On a personal level, since this is the exact argument I got from the psychiatrist I saw back at the end of August, and also on a more objective level.

There is a way to look at cognitive dissonance that has come to be known online as the backfire effect. As defined by the person who coined the term:
David McRaney wrote:The Misconception (Maddie note: bold text is carried over from the original source): When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking.

The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.
McRaney wrote:Just as confirmation bias shields you when you actively seek information, the backfire effect defends you when the information seeks you, when it blindsides you. Coming or going, you stick to your beliefs instead of questioning them. When someone tries to correct you, tries to dilute your misconceptions, it backfires and strengthens them instead. Over time, the backfire effect helps make you less skeptical of those things which allow you to continue seeing your beliefs and attitudes as true and proper.
I don’t want to quote more of the article, since it should be read by anyone who hasn’t read it yet. It may be 7 years old, but it may be even more valid today.

You can look at the backfire effect as a way in which confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combine in the mind and cause a knee-jerk reaction wherein we assume our initial beliefs have been validated, regardless of what the evidence says. Or, to put in $1 words instead of $5 words, we see something that says we’re wrong, and we double down instead. At some point, you’re bound to hear someone say that we all see ourselves as the heroes in our own stories. There’s a decent chance you’ve heard it many times over. The sentiment is true enough. Even someone who might revel in their own capacity to hurt others is still going to see themselves as the primary actor in their own lives. With confirmation bias, our own viewpoints seem logical and correct to us. This may be one of the few times where there is no option but to say “both sides,” or indeed “any sides at all,” are all doing the same thing.

So that’s how confirmation bias comes into play. Our own viewpoint is always the one we see as natural. It can be based on empirical fact, inference, deduction, emotions, or whim. It’s irrelevant for the sake of this explanation whether we’re right or wrong about anything at all. We don’t go into an argument or debate or into reading or watching an opinion piece expecting to be proven wrong. Cognitive dissonance demands that we see ourselves as good people, or at least as morally and ethically justified in our beliefs, and it’s going to trip the moment we see evidence that contradicts our beliefs. I can’t be a bad person, even if the X I hold dear is false and it’s Y that is true. Nope, our first instinct is going to be to reassure ourselves.

Now it’s possible for someone who is open to be proven wrong to change their minds at this point. Maybe a life experience forces them to reconsider their beliefs. Maybe someone they care about and empathize with is hurt by X. People aren’t always afraid to change their minds, though there’s emerging research that suggests that some kinds of people are much more open to changing their minds than others based on both life experience and brain structure. Neuroscience is such a rapidly developing field that this hypothesis could either be disproven or be repeatable enough to become theory at some point, so it’s a good idea to wait and see what develops of this idea, or if it becomes a dead end.

But it isn’t rare at all to double down on our original beliefs. If someone tells me that I’m an abomination for existing, well, my feelings will be hurt (understatement) and it will inevitably lead me to question myself in private, but I am certainly not going to instantly accept this contradictory idea. Nor should I. The backfire effect should not be seen as an invitation to fall into a mineshaft where every idea has equal weight. There’s evidence to show that gender non-conforming people have been around for a very long time in cultures all over the world, which signals that it isn’t some sort of modern cultural aberration. There’s the emergent information coming from psychology and neuroscience mentioned in this thread that points to there being a biological basis for gender dysphoria. Psychology, sociology, and philosophy can all support solid arguments that gender exists as a set of performative norms unlinked from chromosomal sex. Science and the humanities are in basic agreement that trans people are a real, normally-occurring subsection of humanity. So while I might be doubling down on my own feelings, I can at least look to empirical evidence as well as solid arguments to,support my position. I don’t have to fall back on my own feelings to make a case for trans people.

Some beliefs are going to have more weight behind them than others. Anti-vaccine people have an entire system of beliefs to support the idea that currently existing vaccines are more harmful than beneficial to children. They don’t deny that the basic idea of exposing a child to an illness in order to give them immunity from it is a solid one. Instead, they focus on the ingredients of a vaccine, its chemical makeup. Vaccines are often seen as the cause of autism by people in the anti-vaccine community. Others simply do not trust the medical community. That mistrust of medicine and science isn’t wholly unjustified. Think of all the falsified studied paid for by tobacco companies to tout the health benefits of smoking or dispute the dangers of cigarettes so that they wouldn’t have to pay out settlements to the families of lung cancer victims. Think of the Tuskegee experiment, in which people of color were used as guinea pigs and infected with syphillis without their knowledge or consent, and then were left untreated. It is possible to at least see how people can come to develop their beliefs.

But the weight of the evidence is against anti-vaxxers. The study which claimed to show a link between autism and the MMR vaccine turned out to have been tainted by its editor, Andrew Wakefield, who outright fabricated the supposed evidence of the connection in exchange for a £55,000 payout from lawyers connected with the Legal Aid Board who were hoping to cash in on lawsuits. Not only that, but Wakefield had patented a rival vaccine, and his own tests disproved the findings of his paper. There is no scientifically credible evidence that shows the MMR vaccine to be harmful to children, and there is no link between any vaccines and autism. All the supporting evidence to the contrary comes from Wakefield’s fabrications. Even the supposition that it “causes” autism is harmful to people with autism, because it stigmatizes them and can make it harder for them to get any effective help.

No amount of debate has caused most of these people to back off their anti-vaccine position. They double down on their beliefs even when it means losing their jobs, which recently happened to an anti-vaxx nurse who saw a child with measles in person for the first time, brifefly wondered if she might have been wrong, and then openly doubled down on her social media, all in one post. There isn’t any logical argument or factual evidence that will force her to change her position if she could be confronted, in person, with an actual suffering child who needed medical care, and still stick to her beliefs.

So, in the case of the trans “debate:” there isn’t one. The evidence is on the side of trans people. But people have very strong feelings about it, and it is admittedly difficult for me to be fair or objective about that. From my perspective, these feelings seem irrational and based wholly on fear of the Other, with a dash of homophobia and a lot of misogyny mixed into the soup. But my own feelings are irrelevant. No matter how I present my argument, the backfire effect is going to kick in with a lot of people in the audience. Many of them won’t ever change their minds.

In the past, I’ve done regrettable things to try to convince people that they could accept us and that we only wanted to be allowed to live our lives. The first mistake I made was in assuming we needed to be allowed in the first place. No one gains civil rights by politely asking for them. It hasn’t ever worked. The answer is always going to be that change takes time, and that we have to wait. At this point, I might as well link the “Letter from Birmingham Jail”, because there is zero chance that I can argue half as well as Dr. King did. And yes, the reality is that the American government is not geared for swift and rapid change by design. I do not see this as a reason to lay down and let people be trampled into the pavement while they politely wait for fearful people to change their minds. People gain rights by demanding them and by being willing to fight for them.

The second mistake I made is that I didn’t realize I had made the first one, and so went about tone policing other trans people. I was afraid that anger would cause people to stop listening. Sometimes they do stop listening. Sometimes the people who say they stop listening are acting in bad faith and were never interested in listening. People can be angry sometimes, whether it’s politically convenient in the moment or not. You go about convincing the people who do want to learn, and show them patience and compassion in turn, and you stand up to the people who won’t listen. Sometimes that necessitates being angry in order to show that you won’t passively let yourself become a victim.

In the context of debating with the alt-right, it’s important to recognize that they have no interest in honest debate. They see themselves as trolls and provocateurs who are going to save the West from a threat which is simultaneously nebulous, incompetent and weak, and all-powerful. That is how fascism operates. It empowers people who feel weak and helpless by telling them that they are strong heroes. It’s an appeal to emotion dressed up as reason. For them, the point of a debate is to undermine the opposition and make it look as weak and foolish as they imagine it to be. It’s more important to them to look decisive and strong than to be logical or factually correct. And indecisive people are often more swayed by people who seem confident and in control than by logic.

Debates, then, are pointless in this context. A person who is open to learning more about trans people despite their doubts can be swayed by evidence and logic. A person who has been shocked out of their previous beliefs might become open to learning. A person who is doubling down thanks to the backfire effect is never going to,listen to anything you say and most likely has a vested interest in making you look like a fool so that they can maintain their feelings of superiority. And no group should ever have to feel like their existence is contingent based upon their ability to convince people that they should be given civil rights. No one has a right to take your identity away from you or make you feel less than human, even if they have the force of law on their side.

Standing up for yourself can be hard but there isn’t any other way to do it. You have to demand your rights. You can’t afford to wait and hope majority opinion swings your way someday, because anyone who isn’t personally affected would probably put it off rather than have to think about it. It’s unpleasant, but that’s what happens. So if you feel like charts and graphs and studies and videos are going to help, maybe it will sometimes, but it’s not a tactic that can be relied upon. Some people won’t listen no matter what, because their self-perception as good and even heroic people depends on refusing to accept your arguments and they will of, you and try to make you look weak. They may even try to hurt you. The only option is to stand up and make noise.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:35 pm

That's a seriously great post, Madeline. Thank you. :flutterunsmith: I wish I had more useful words to say but you really put it better than I could have. I'm not trans and obviously not qualified on this matter, but I think about the general problem of advocacy and tone a lot. Thanks for posting.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:30 pm

With Christmas upon us, a reminder on why you should never donate to the Salvation Army.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:00 am

Perrydotto wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:35 pm
That's a seriously great post, Madeline. Thank you. :flutterunsmith: I wish I had more useful words to say but you really put it better than I could have. I'm not trans and obviously not qualified on this matter, but I think about the general problem of advocacy and tone a lot. Thanks for posting.
I struggle with those problems a lot too. There’s a nuance to these problems that makes it difficult to decide what to do sometimes. How do you know who can be reached and who can’t? How do you reach them? It helps to write about it because the process can help you work out some answers. I don’t think everyone is a lost cause. Not even people who are in full-blown white supremacist fash mode, because people can make it out of that life. It’s hard, but people do it sometimes. I do wonder if I’m part of the problem when I get angry and start in with “Nazi this and Nazi that.” I worry about alienating people.

But I also know there are people who would hurt or kill people for being anything but straight and white, and they aren’t always going to act like cartoon supervillains and make it obvious. Some of them might not even be doing it out of bigotry alone, but because they’re sociopaths looking for easy targets.

I wish it was easier to see who could be helped and who can’t be helped, because deep down I’m still an idealist (and kind of a hippie :-I ) and I’d really rather see people being able to live with each other in peace. It’s not possible right now and it bothers me. So it’s difficult to reconcile my ideals with reality. The future needs to be a better place and there are so many things that could go wrong that have been building up for generations. The present is the best place to start trying to prevent as much harm as possible.

I also want to keep things in perspective for myself because no matter how abstract or large these concepts are, at the end of the day it’s still just posts on a small forum dedicated to a children’s cartoon. :v: it’s not like I have all the answers and I don’t even know for sure that my ideas are even necessarily workable or right.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Madeline (?) » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:19 pm



Now Facebook is cramming LGBT people back in the closet. FOSTA and SESTA are more about hurting queer people than protecting children or preventing sex trafficking. My Senator is an ultra-far-right Republican asshole who hates the queers so calling him will do jackshit.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:46 pm

As if losing the re-election wasn't enough, Kim Davis is now forced to pay over $200,000 in legal fees to the same-sex couples that sued her for refusing to issue marriage license.

Hell yeah.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:32 pm

Anyone familiar with Graham Linehan? He's a TV writer that's been blowing up on Twitter because of an interview where he said "I'm not transphobic".

I've heard he had TERF beliefs, but damn, he's REALLY obsessed with bashing trans people.



:amazed:
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:20 am

He's been in a meltdown over trans people for what's likely been over a year now. I first noticed when someone contacted him asking about one joke on The IT Crowd (one of the shows he produced over a decade ago) that came off as kind of transphobic now. Instead of acknowledging it and how times have changed, he insisted it wasn't problematic and has been doubling down on it ever since.

It was because of him that Hbomberguy started that Donkey Kong 64 marathon stream to raise money for a British trans charity.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:27 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:20 am
It was because of him that Hbomberguy started that Donkey Kong 64 marathon stream to raise money for a British trans charity.
You forgot to mention the real kicker: Hbomberguy did this in response to Linehan seriously campaigning to ban the trans charity Mermaids from receiving national lottery charity funds. The lottery put their previously promised money under review, and Hbomberguy did his stream to make sure that Mermaids would get some well deserved support no matter what. Graham Linehan is that obsessed with hating trans people that he's more than okay with literally preventing children in need from getting funds. When you are fine with harming children just because you don't know what the hell you are talking about and decide they are all brainwashed, you know you are a giant asshole. His personal pick from the TERF narrative pool is that trans kids are actually just gay kids being forced to be straight by having their gender swapped. Yeah.

Some stories at least have a happy end, and this is one of them: Not only did Hbomberguy smash all expectations and raised 340k for Mermaids, they also eventually received the 500k lottery donation after they, surprise surprise, found zero issues.
A 40-page document published by the public body, which is responsible for distributing funds raised by the National Lottery for charitable causes, on Tuesday (February 19), concluded that the allegations made against Mermaids were baseless, and therefore did not justify withholding the grant.
Eat shit, Graham.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by kookwowse (?) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:17 am

What the fuck. :starity:

Well, that's the last time I watched anything this asshole has been involved with.

What a POS.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Madeline (?) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:44 pm

kookwowse wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:17 am
What the fuck. :starity:

Well, that's the last time I watched anything this asshole has been involved with.

What a POS.
It’s probably ridiculous, but one of the things that made me so angry about Linehan’s shitty behavior is that he ruined Father Ted for me.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:43 am

Oh dang, I never realized the extent Linehan hates trans people, and that he's what lead to Hbomberguy doing that marathon stream.

Yeah, seeing his plan backfire spectacularly is amazing. Eat shit indeed.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:23 am

Madeline wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:44 pm
It’s probably ridiculous, but one of the things that made me so angry about Linehan’s shitty behavior is that he ruined Father Ted for me.
I loved The IT Crowd, but after his meltdown I find myself having a hard time recommending it at all. You're at least not alone in being bothered like that.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by kookwowse (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:37 am

Hell, same.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:58 pm

IT Crowd sadly already showed the warning signs, with a really strange episode about an asshole character dating a trans woman and being grossed out, but the narrative still mocking the trans woman a bunch. It makes a sad amount of sense in hindsight.

Make the decisions you are comfortable with, but it does help to remember that TV, like a lot of media we enjoy, is a big collaborative effort and Linehan wasn't directly involved with every single aspect. Hell, it's not uncommon for showrunners to write very few episodes since they are more general overseers and less direct contributors. A showrunner lays the foundation and other collaborators do the meat of it. However, much how Linehan really threw in his weight to make decisions and such on those contributions I can't say, it varies from work to work how much a showrunner does that.

These sorta feelings on "can I seperate creator from work, should I, will I?" are very complicated and personal and really a case by case thing. Personally I'm okay because there's tons of other hilarious shows not made by a known rabid transphobe, but I know I also still like things made by very problematic people. In any case, having the knowledge to make these decisions is the key at any rate, and being able to pass this knowledge on to others when need be is helpful.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:42 pm

Perrydotto wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:58 pm
IT Crowd sadly already showed the warning signs, with a really strange episode about an asshole character dating a trans woman and being grossed out, but the narrative still mocking the trans woman a bunch. It makes a sad amount of sense in hindsight.
I remember that, but I'd always forgiven it partly because said character was incredibly unsympathetic (like, not quite Always Sunny-levels of being horrible, but damn near close) and partly since that episode was over a decade old. That's why I ended up being so badly disappointed when Graham Linehan took commentary on what might've been the show's most controversial joke and, instead of discussing how what's tolerated in media has changed between then and now, or the finer points of writing jerks in a comedy without making them look like the good guys, or anything else sensible, he instead started shitting his pants.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Madeline (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:26 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:42 pm
I remember that, but I'd always forgiven it partly because said character was incredibly unsympathetic (like, not quite Always Sunny-levels of being horrible, but damn near close) and partly since that episode was over a decade old. That's why I ended up being so badly disappointed when Graham Linehan took commentary on what might've been the show's most controversial joke and, instead of discussing how what's tolerated in media has changed between then and now, or the finer points of writing jerks in a comedy without making them look like the good guys, or anything else sensible, he instead started shitting his pants.
That’s what galls me so much about Linehan’s shitty behavior: the fact that he leaned hard into becoming a TERF because he’s so thin-skinned he couldn’t tolerate criticism of one thing he wrote. He put his fucking ego above the safety and comfort of other people. What a narcissist.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Perrydotto (?) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:47 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:42 pm
I remember that, but I'd always forgiven it partly because said character was incredibly unsympathetic (like, not quite Always Sunny-levels of being horrible, but damn near close) and partly since that episode was over a decade old.
Douglas was always a giant asshole, yeah. Hence why I said the episode really weirdly slips up because it also mocks the trans woman a lot, even though she's the victim in the situation. In hindsight, it makes a sad amount of sense.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Mon May 13, 2019 6:50 pm

Recently, "Arthur" aired an episode where Mr. Ratburn married a man.



This is a huge change from 15 years ago when an episode of the Arthur spin-off "Postcards with Buster" caused a shitstorm because they did an episode where Buster meets a girl who has two moms. Some things really did change.
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by minty (?) » Mon May 13, 2019 7:47 pm

What's interesting, is that this is a character who has been around since the beginning. So people have had a long time to like this character. Good for them!

Between this and Steven Universe, I wonder if any other shows will do this.

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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Octavia (?) » Tue May 14, 2019 4:41 pm

I haven't watched the show since I was a kid. I didn't even know it was still running, but Mr. Ratburn has always been obsessed with cake



AND HE MARRIED A BAKER HOW PERFECT :-D
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Octavia (?) » Tue May 21, 2019 7:22 pm

Of course Alabama Public Television banned the episode. Fun Fact: Alabama also banned the episode where Kirk kissed Uhura on Star Trek.

Quote of the year from a Substitute Teacher in AL right here:
"I never thought I'd be going to battle for a gay rat wedding, but here we are"
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Re: LGBT - Accepting the Rainbow

Post by Mr. Big (?) » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 pm

Writer Nicholas Sparks tried to ban LGBT club at his school.

Pretty damning emails, including numerous homophobic and racist harassments. Like yeesh.
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