The Gender and Sexual Minorities Thread II: So Many Wonders

[M14Brony]

It's hard to avoid getting derailed when arguing with someone who immediately starts talking about polygamy, or about marrying your dog. Just got to stay on target. Polygamy is an interesting debate, but has nothing to do with gay marriage. Bringing it up is just a distraction tactic. If someone starts talking about that, I'd ask them if they're ready to concede the point on gay marriage, since they seem inclined to change the subject. (Note, this sort of rhetorical sarcasm could piss people off, but it's fun)

And as far as marrying your dog, horse, and turtle, well that's unarguable. As long as the turtle looks good in a suit.

The logical fallacies of such people alone prove that they have lost whatever argument they were tring to make.

Being homophobic isn't just a difference of opinion. It is also indicative of flawed character and a lack of intellect.

[Momo]

Insulting people's intelligence is a great way to make sure they don't listen to what you have to say. Yes, dealing with all this unfiltered, irrational, undisguised hate can be incredibly rankling, but calling your opponents stupid won't win anyone over. And these are the people we need to win over.

[M14Brony]

Momar, your most recent post contradicts what you said here:

That sounds like a pretty big rationalization. I'd know because I made the same one oh-so many years ago. Anyone who hates you because you're trans wasn't worth knowing in the first place.The only time you need to start giving a shit about other peoples' personal prejudices are when they start to affect your employment, your housing, or your safety.

(My emphasis)

I am sure many a homophobic or trams phobic opponent would find it offensive to be deemed unworthy of knowing. And deeming such people as being unworthy of being known implies that they aren't worth "winning over." The charges leveled against me are predicated on inconsistent and hypocritical methods.

[Momo]

First off, there's a great deal of difference between wanting to associate yourself with someone and calling them names.

Second, what charges? Settle down.

[concerned reader]

Momar, your most recent post contradicts what you said here:



(My emphasis)

I am sure many a homophobic or trams phobic opponent would find it offensive to be deemed unworthy of knowing. And deeming such people as being unworthy of being known implies that they aren't worth "winning over." The charges leveled against me are predicated on inconsistent and hypocritical methods.

Sassing a mod is a generally frowned upon action around these parts. Especially when it appears to be an attempt to save face.

The two situations are completely different. You made a blanket statement that all homophobes are substandard intelligence, which objectively can be proven untrue, and is inflamitory by nature. Momar was discussing a situation in which people yoh know come out as transphobic and are possibly endangering you, so they are not and should not be considered friends or even aquantances.

[M14Brony]

First off, there's a great deal of difference between wanting to associate yourself with someone and calling them names.

Second, what charges? Settle down.

And since when do people take such a "cold shoulder" kindly? Many people would find that insulting. Furthermore, the placement of colored and bold text from a moderator is also often done when giving official warnings and such. Such a thing, even if it wasn't intended, came off as threatening.

One cannot win over Westboro Baptist Church, and a homophobe is going to be offended by being called a bigot in spite of the apodictic nature of such a statement. Our mere existence is offensive to the people. We cannot always make them happy.

[ShieldedDiamond]

To be fair, I don't really see that as hypocritical. I see it more as what's fair and what isn't. I mean, you can't call people something bad as a generalization, saying all people who are homophobic are unintelligent. I don't think that's the case. I mean, some people I believe are homophobic because of their religion, and they're afraid of their own potential consequences, and you know what? I'm not going to hate them for that. I'm not going to be prejudice towards homophobic individuals, or transphobic individuals just because they're prejudice against me. As for what Momar said, should I know people who hate trans? No. Doesn't mean I should hate them myself, but if I am close to them, I could get harmed.

Preview Edit: What Concerned Reader said, basically. And to be fair again, I don't think it's the cold shoulder, more along the lines of "I shouldn't try to get close to some of these people, because I could get harmed." Not ignoring them, but being cautious, and with good reason. And personally, I never felt the colored/bolded texts was a warning unless it said so. I personally felt like it was just something to help put things down before it became a problem, not specifically a threat or "If something like that is said again, you're suspended."

[Momo]

And since when do people take such a "cold shoulder" kindly? Many people would find that insulting. Furthermore, the placement of colored and bold text from a moderator is also often done when giving official warnings and such. Such a thing, even if it wasn't intended, came off as threatening.

People take that cold shoulder as kindly as they can when they hate you and want nothing to do with you either. I don't see many homophobes complaining about not being invited to marshal the pride parade.

Also, I specifically chose green text because I didn't want the thread to derail into homophobe-bashing, but didn't want to come off as angry. This is turning into a derail, so if you feel the need to dwell further on the matter, please take it to the callouts thread. Trust me, if you're ever being given an official warning, you'll know it.

[M14Brony]

I won't go over my misunderstanding of green text or other concerns here, but I feel this is relevant:

People take that shoulder as kindly as they can when they hate you and want nothing to do with you either. I don't see many homophobes complaining about not being invited to marshal the pride parade.

I don't understand this. One minute, it is said we must win over such people. Another minute, it is said they want nothing to do with us. If they want nothing to do with us, how are they won over? Furthermore, we must keep in mind that it can be dangerous to win over these people; we have to expose what we stand for if we do try to win over these people. This approach comes off as contradictory. It is important to discuss how to combat homophobia, but I don't see how this contradictory approach works.

[concerned reader]

I won't go over my misunderstanding of green text or other concerns here, but I feel this is relevant:



I don't understand this. One minute, it is said we must win over such people. Another minute, it is said they want nothing to do with us. If they want nothing to do with us, how are they won over? Furthermore, we must keep in mind that it can be dangerous to win over these people; we have to expose what we stand for if we do try to win over these people. This approach comes off as contradictory. It is important to discuss how to combat homophobia, but I don't see how this contradictory approach works.

I think you're missing that the cold shoulder isn't the only technique that Momar is recommending. It's just the one for a specific situation.

Someone can be a homophobe without being a raging asshole. Maybe they were raised with it and don't know better. Maybe they're from a different culture. Whatever it is, they don't agree with gay rights, but they also don't believe in gay bashing. That's someone that you could potentially change their opinions just by interacting with them in a cordial manner.

If you have a friend that is growing increasingly more homophobic and they constantly spout off things like "no homo" "lol so gay" and "dumb faggots" no matter how much you ask them not to; that is when you employ the cold shoulder.

[Perpetual Motion]

I'm feeling kinda shitty at the moment for a stupid mistake that I really shouldn't be too worked up over, but I feel that I need to apologize for it here just to get it off of my chest.

I've been having problems mis-gendering people here, especially those who have recently come out or those whose voices I have heard. It's usually just in my head when thinking about people, and I quickly correct myself, but today I ended up mis-gendering Pseudonym at several points in a conversation when my parents asked about who I was hanging out with last night. It caused a few raised eyebrows when they noticed me alternating between "he" and "she". I just want to apologize for my screwups and say that I'm really trying to get things right. I wish breaking old associations in my head was easier.

[londonarbuckle]

[quote="Perpetual post_id=54270 time=1394083800 user_id=77]I'm feeling kinda shitty at the moment for a stupid mistake that I really shouldn't be too worked up over, but I feel that I need to apologize for it here just to get it off of my chest.

I've been having problems mis-gendering people here, especially those who have recently come out or those whose voices I have heard. It's usually just in my head when thinking about people, and I quickly correct myself, but today I ended up mis-gendering Pseudonym at several points in a conversation when my parents asked about who I was hanging out with last night. It caused a few raised eyebrows when they noticed me alternating between "he" and "she". I just want to apologize for my screwups and say that I'm really trying to get things right. I wish breaking old associations in my head was easier. [/quote]

It happens to the best of us, PL. I still slip up fairly often.

[ShieldedDiamond]

PerpLurk, it's okay, we all make mistakes, nobody will blame you for anything. We know you wouldn't do anything like that on purpose.

[M14Brony]

I think you're missing that the cold shoulder isn't the only technique that Momar is recommending. It's just the one for a specific situation.

I didn't say it was the only technique that could be used, but its use is a concession that we shouldn't simply walk on eggshells around homophobes due to a fear of potentially offending them. I will admit that I should have worded things differently previously, but at the same time, the potential to offend a homophobe is inherent in an encounter with one. Various things that have been said here by others have just as much potential to insult a homophobe as my previous statement that "bent the stick too far."

Someone can be a homophobe without being a raging asshole. Maybe they were raised with it and don't know better. Maybe they're from a different culture. Whatever it is, they don't agree with gay rights, but they also don't believe in gay bashing. That's someone that you could potentially change their opinions just by interacting with them in a cordial manner.

Some people do shed vacuous contentions about LGBT people. At the same time, some of these people have the potential to put personal ties above the facts, i.e. some with homophobic friends will be more concerned with maintaining such friendships than taking a principled stance. We are all going to ultimately do things that homophobes find insulting in the process. I also won't hide my militant opposition to religious fundamentalism (a major source of homophobic sentiment).

If you have a friend that is growing increasingly more homophobic and they constantly spout off things like "no homo" "lol so gay" and "dumb faggots" no matter how much you ask them not to; that is when you employ the cold shoulder.

My previous statement that "bent the stick too far" is applicable to such people.

[quote="Perpetual post_id=54270 time=1394083800 user_id=77]I'm feeling kinda shitty at the moment for a stupid mistake that I really shouldn't be too worked up over, but I feel that I need to apologize for it here just to get it off of my chest.

I've been having problems mis-gendering people here, especially those who have recently come out or those whose voices I have heard. It's usually just in my head when thinking about people, and I quickly correct myself, but today I ended up mis-gendering Pseudonym at several points in a conversation when my parents asked about who I was hanging out with last night. It caused a few raised eyebrows when they noticed me alternating between "he" and "she". I just want to apologize for my screwups and say that I'm really trying to get things right. I wish breaking old associations in my head was easier. [/quote]

You haven't been doing this with malicious intent. Furthermore, you noted that some of these people have recently come out, i.e. there was a time when you weren't aware of them being transgendered. There is a difference between accidentally mixing up gender pronouns and maliciously doing as such in a transphobic manner.

[West Filly]

Momar's giving constructive advice and a situational opinion. However, if we're trying to generate general principles, then these situational ideas won't necessarily fit.

While we can keep the bigger picture of acceptance in mind, there's probably no external form of good, judgemental God, or any contract obliging me to devote any of my effort to furthering the trans cause. I do it when I see fit, and for my own reasons - which happen to be part self interest and part shared experience/ empathy with trans people. But, if someone upsets me, or makes me feel like shit, I don't have to put up with them for the greater good. Nothing obliges me to prioritise trans causes above my own personal wellbeing, personal comfort, or any of those above the personal desire to express deep seated and emotive ideas such as "fuck you" to transphobes.

Personally, I think this may be what momar was expressing, just in fragments rather than in one direct bundle. I think it also could be what you're trying to say.

[Momo]

I didn't say it was the only technique that could be used, but its use is a concession that we shouldn't simply walk on eggshells around homophobes due to a fear of potentially offending them.

When did I ever even imply this is what we should do? I really don't know why you're beating this dead horse, and why you insist on reducing this thread to semantic nitpicking. If you want to go back into the thread history and use the report function to flag other incidents where people have made blanket offensive generalizations, I can post some more gently worded guidance that they shouldn't do so. This applies to myself as well, although the statement you cited referred to specific people in a specific circumstance in relation to a specific person's specific concerns. Otherwise, move on. Derail over. If you want to keep harping on this take it to the callouts thread, but stop derailing this thread.

[quote="Perpetual post_id=54270 time=1394083800 user_id=77] [/quote]
If you're a jerk for accidentally misgendering people in good faith, then I'm a total monster, because I do it all the damn time.

[Aramek]

I may have had my first ever gay dream last night. I just want everyone to know that I blame you all directly.

[Momo]

Wow, you can catch The Gay. Donald Trump was right.

[BackgroundPony]

Well, I may have detonated a gay bomb over your house last night. All part of the gay conspiracy, of course. I just take my orders from the high council of fabulousity.

[Logicgate]

My flight leaves at 9:40 this evening.

This is happening.

[Perrydotto]

My flight leaves at 9:40 this evening.

This is happening.

Gosh, this is so fantastic. I am so happy for you, this is tremendous

[ROBOT B9]

I certainly hope everything turns out wonderful for you, Logicgate!

[ShieldedDiamond]

Best of luck to you, Logicgate!

[londonarbuckle]

I am super stoked on your behalf Logicgate! Have a safe trip!

[Mir]

Logic, I don't know how you can stand the excitement.
Sooo happy for you.

[Logicgate]

Logic, I don't know how you can stand the excitement.
Sooo happy for you.

Me: Right now I am doing, like, just the BEST job at remembering to breathe
And generally holding my physical form together rather than dissolving into dancing and flitting lights of nervousness and excitement
The second SOUNDS really cool, but I wouldn't look a thing like the picture on my passport

Her: Hahahahaha also might be some kind of epilepsy hazard.

Me: Oh! Yeah, that would be really inconsiderate of me!
Several of my motes would then resonate with sadness

Her: So yeah. Extra incentive to remain matter.

Me: Yeah
don't wanna be a sadmote

Always remember not to be a sadmote

[Logicgate]

Thanks for all your well-wishes! I'm currently splitting my time between packing and being too excited to do anything but tell people how excited I am.

[Call of Duty Ghosts]

Congrats Logicgate!

[Aramek]

*internet hug Logic*

[Princess Flufflebutt]

My flight leaves at 9:40 this evening.

This is happening.

For a moment there, I thought there was a reference or something I wasn't quite getting. I was like "What does this have to do with dropping a gay bomb over someone's house?" Then it hit me that you were not talking about that. So, congrats!

[CorvusCaw]

Good luck, Logicgate

[Octavia]

I'm super happy for you, Logicgate!

[Highbrow Dash]

Best of luck! Send us postcards

[Luneshot]

I'm super excited for you- congrats! I hope it goes well!

[BeautifulShy]

Hope everything goes well LogicGate.

[Coyote]

So um Hi cuties how ya'll doin

First logicgate Im so happy for you wish you best of luck!

I don't want to rain in the parade so I hope it's ok if I just, well talk myself out here.

Now for something completly different, hope everybody is alright it's been a while since I've showed my face around here, what can I say, I'm sorry I guess, I know it's my bussines and all and I probably should't apologize but that's how I am, I feel like I need to apologize, Im weak, didn't even connect to irc all this time. Things have not been good for me in, what half a year or something? I don't know, time flies. I guess I want to give an explanation?

My psychologist dissapeared from the face of the earth when I thought I had support there, the person who was my best friend has not really been a good support either, she was surprised, then “supportive” and then everything I spoked was received with indifference or disagreement, I wasn't allowed to experiment because it would be awkward, I dropped everything went into denial.

When I talked to her about my social anxiety she said that I was exaggerating because I've never used that word before in my life so of course that means I'm making shit up, “you heard that word somewhere and you are just repeating it”, well no shit it describes exactly what I have, my fears, everything. That ended up affecting the rest of our relationship.

In the end I gave up, we don't talk much now and when we do is nothing related to any issues of mine, being queerness, transness (is that even a word), or my social anxiety, why would I bother I don't want to make it awkward for her, that's the story of my life not doing stuff because of fear of what people would say about me, feeling weak and alone I “escaped”, I didn't want to be a bother, now I feel like I ran away from the only place and people that would understand the way I was feeling, or at least not call me a liar when I talked about my own feelings, but I decided to run away like the weak coward I am. I feel like I abandonded a very very good friend here too (hope she can forgive me ).


I needed a reality check I suppose, a reality that slapped me in the face and left me in the floor crying.
Also Momar's post some pages ago made me cry thanks Momar , but it was in part what motivated me to post and be here again.
Next week I start my classes, I'm now studying graphic design in a university here, I hope I can actually do something for myself these following years. I need to stand up, wipe my tears and move on foward. Hopefully this year will be better for me, if not I will try my best to make it better myself.


And that's that, sorry for being a party pooper.

Also I'm glad to see that this forum STILL has the best smilies.

[Snowfire]

Good luck Logicgate! Let us know when you're out of surgery.

[Ninetails]

Welcome back, Coyote!

Sorry you had to go through all of that, though. Sounds rough

[londonarbuckle]

Glad to see you here again, Coyote!

[Mir]

Nobody is gonna hold it against you, Coyote. Pretty safe to say you're always welcome around here.
Sorry to hear you been having some trying times...