The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Tolerance!

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Jill (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:08 pm

[quote="Perpetual post_id=16209 time=1365122875 user_id=77]Technically, isn't upholding someone's right to disapprove of homosexuality due to their religious beliefs in the spirit of the First Amendment? I mean, if their religion teaches them to disapprove and not support it, which isn't exactly directly harmful to anyone, then that right should be protected under the law.[/quote]If my religion says paying taxes is evil then do I get to opt out of it? :-I

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by BackgroundPony (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:11 pm

Gravenstein wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:40 pm
Hey, still on the topic of states passing/trying to pass stupid hateful laws:

Virginia is for lovers! (Unless you're not into straight vaginal intercourse!)

Of course it's largely a symbolic gesture, since Lawrence v. Texas kind of made antisodomy laws unconstitutional 10 years ago, but still: way to be progressive, dickheads. :-/
That's Ken Cuccinelli for you. He was also a big force behind trying to pass that vaginal ultrasound anti-abortion bill. Those people are just flat out crazy. And as you state, there's no way it would ever become law. But that's not going to stop them from trolling people with it. :bluh:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:12 pm

Grim wrote:[quote="Perpetual post_id=16209 time=1365122875 user_id=77]Technically, isn't upholding someone's right to disapprove of homosexuality due to their religious beliefs in the spirit of the First Amendment? I mean, if their religion teaches them to disapprove and not support it, which isn't exactly directly harmful to anyone, then that right should be protected under the law.
If my religion says paying taxes is evil then do I get to opt out of it? :-I[/quote]

If such a religion existed, I bet you could put up one hell of a fight to that effect. Creating such a religion out of thin air would be nearly impossible, though. :-I

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Octavia (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:14 pm

[quote="Perpetual post_id=16220 time=1365124359 user_id=77]
Grim wrote:If my religion says paying taxes is evil then do I get to opt out of it? :-I
If such a religion existed, I bet you could put up one hell of a fight to that effect. Creating such a religion out of thin air would be impossible, though. :-I[/quote]
Seeing as how religion in the USA is all tax exempt, I'm pretty sure they all think paying taxes is evil.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Cthulhu Inc (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:30 pm

Let's start our own religion!

We hold the following to be true, that all humans have the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and happiness, that to deny another's access to those rights purposefully is evil, and that logic, compassion, and harmony are the greatest virtues, which one should strive to attain.*

Also that being required to pay taxes is also evil.


*This is like, my actual philosophy-religion.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by diribigal (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:37 pm

[quote="Perpetual post_id=16181 time=1365058432 user_id=77]Awkward memories from my childhood keep cropping up as "evidence" of one thing or another, as do bits of myself that simply don't make sense no matter what context I put them in, and sometimes they're just disturbing.[/quote]IWF mentioned that examining one's childhood or whatever usually comes later. The flip side of this is that, basically, you are who you are today (or at least this past year/5 years/whatever).

When I was a child, I was a child, and that doesn't really have any bearing on who I today: I won't let my self from a few years ago (let alone my childhood self) mislead me nor hold me back from whoever I feel I am/want to become right now. :twiright:

I don't know if that helps, but it's what came to mind. :pinkieshrug:
Let's start our own religion!
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Daionus The 23rd » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:42 pm

Let's make one!

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:43 pm

I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone by playing the Devil's Advocate, here. I simply feel that if we want to advocate freedom and rights, we need to protect the freedom and right's of everyone. Societal changes will eventually take care of the bigotry, but in the meantime we can't half-ass freedom of expression, else it could just as easily be used against us in ways far worse than "I'd like to opt out of contributing money to an organization I disagree with."

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Dexanth (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:14 pm

[quote="Perpetual post_id=16225 time=1365126191 user_id=77]I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone by playing the Devil's Advocate, here. I simply feel that if we want to advocate freedom and rights, we need to protect the freedom and right's of everyone. Societal changes will eventually take care of the bigotry, but in the meantime we can't half-ass freedom of expression, else it could just as easily be used against us in ways far worse than "I'd like to opt out of contributing money to an organization I disagree with."[/quote]

They already have freedom and rights.

Specifically, they have the freedom to enroll in a different university.

Extending it to paying taxes - I think we spend far, far too much money on the military, for example; that while I support much of the R&D because of the technological dividends it ends up paying, I don't support us policing the entire world, or any number of other things we've done.

But I don't get to choose to not have tax dollars I pay not go to the military. I don't get to say no to corn or oil or other subsidies I don't approve of.

Just because you don't care for something doesn't mean you can opt out of paying for it.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Jill (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:43 pm

Freedom of expression doesn't mean everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too. You can be a bigot all you want, but when that starts exempting you from laws that are there in the first place to prevent your bullshit from harming others, you need to have some privileges taken away.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:40 pm

I guess I'm just not seeing the harm being done here. And I personally see quite a difference between disagreeing with homosexuality morally via religion, and outright bigotry. A bigot thinks that the group that they hate are lesser people than they are. A Christian can disapprove of your sexual orientation without thinking less of you as a person. It's about the same as disproving of someone becoming a lawyer or a soldier because of a personal moral disagreement with those professions.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Pineapple » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:45 pm

Except they do think less of you as a person, and take every opportunity to tell you how you're fucking up your life by choosing to be a pervert.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:49 pm

Those people are still bigots. I've met people who, at least outwardly, behave otherwise. :pinkieshrug:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by londonarbuckle (?) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:52 pm

Denying funds to an lgbt center is harmful to lgbt people, who can highly benefit from having a safe space like that.

Bigotry for religious reasons is still bigotry, if (your interpretation of) your religion encourages bigotry then your beliefs suck. They're still constitutionally protected but there's a difference between outlawing a belief structure and forcing you to violate it because other people don't get to and it's wrong. There's a reason Jim Crow laws no longer exist.

And I really don't buy that disapproving of one's sexual orientation does not equal looking down on them. I'm not sure what else it could be?

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Timber72 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:58 pm

So........ can I say that tuition goes against my most deeply held religious belief, since you know, it totally violates this argument they made:
"Our decision here is not going to reach that far," Ackerman said. "I just want to show how dangerous a philosophy is that some organization, government or otherwise, can make a person do what is against their most deeply held beliefs."

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Gravenstein » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:08 am

I just want to show how dangerous a philosophy is that some organization, government or otherwise, can make a person do what is against their most deeply held beliefs.
what is against their most deeply held beliefs.
their most deeply held beliefs.
Mark 12:31 wrote:The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE, YOU MORON

HAVE YOU READ THE FUCKING BIBLE

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:11 am

Interpretations, man. Interpretations. Most people just take that to feed into the "hate the sin, love the sinner," approach.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by diribigal (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:14 am

Gravenstein wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:08 am
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE, YOU MORON

HAVE YOU READ THE FUCKING BIBLE
Just because their personal beliefs may include the bible doesn't necessarily mean that they take the bible the same way you would/do. Their beliefs are whatever their beliefs are, whether it be "gay people don't deserve help", or whatever.

I don't want this to be all I say about this, but I like the sound of the "I don't get to withhold tuition for another student center, so they shouldn't get to withhold it for this one" argument.
Last edited by diribigal on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:48 am

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/ ... body-views
Over 4000 people have signed a petition to get the student body president to veto the bill.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:51 am

[quote="Perpetual post_id=16231 time=1365133748 user_id=77]Those people are still bigots. I've met people who, at least outwardly, behave otherwise. :pinkieshrug:[/quote]
You should check out a book called Love Is An Orientation. It's a good exploration of the potential conflict between the Christian Mindset and gay culture.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by BackgroundPony (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:20 am

No one is "making" them go against their beliefs. Just because they pay some fees to the university and those fees are redistributed to some groups that they may not agree with doesn't mean that their beliefs are being infringed. I pay U.S. taxes, those taxes have gone to fund wars that I disagree with over the past decade. That doesn't mean that by some bizarre transitive property that I now must support those wars. It just means that I follow tax laws, that's it. What a bunch of idiots. I mean, if they want to give up any and all public dollars that they're receiving then they're welcome to enact whatever draconian dark ages rules they want.

And hiding behind religion to do it is just a sham. Buck up and realize that in the real world, you're going to have to deal with people that you don't agree with. The best rule is to always defend everyone's right to speech of all types. Keep your disagreements at the level of intelligent discourse. Argue with words, don't argue with laws. Those can always be turned against you, after all.
Pineapple wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:45 pm
Except they do think less of you as a person, and take every opportunity to tell you how you're fucking up your life by choosing to be a pervert.
This comes across as 'all Christians think this way,' which is rather unfair, not to mention just obviously untrue. I know of at least myself, Kate, and Snowfire who are admitted Christians around here, and I really hope none of us have given anyone reason to think we're bigots. But I know that a lot of the loudest Christians out there are exactly like this. If one person could ever speak for that many, I'd love to offer an apology for that. I know it would be hollow, but still, I wish I could.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by WhitemageofDOOM » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:39 am

[quote="Perpetual post_id=16235 time=1365135103 user_id=77]Interpretations, man. Interpretations. Most people just take that to feed into the "hate the sin, love the sinner," approach.[/quote]

"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is fucking hard.
Twilight wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:58 pm
So........ can I say that tuition goes against my most deeply held religious belief, since you know, it totally violates this argument they made:
It's rather fundamental to the whole concept of a democratic state that it has the right and legitimacy to force you to act against your deeply held convictions because of it's nature as a compromise between all the competing interests of society.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Pineapple » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:13 am

BackgroundPony wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:20 am
This comes across as 'all Christians think this way,' which is rather unfair, not to mention just obviously untrue. I know of at least myself, Kate, and Snowfire who are admitted Christians around here, and I really hope none of us have given anyone reason to think we're bigots. But I know that a lot of the loudest Christians out there are exactly like this. If one person could ever speak for that many, I'd love to offer an apology for that. I know it would be hollow, but still, I wish I could.
You're in the gay thread actively not being a fuckhat, obviously I'm not talking about you but the people who trot out the "Hate the sin love the sinner" chestnut and have a fit about ARE TUISHUN FUNDIN DER GHEYS

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by West Filly (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:35 am

Should a student be allowed to choose whether or not they fund the Christian Union, then. :pinkieshrug:

Let's say they had another religion.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Captain Kirk » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:06 am

I should say yes. I'd be willing to bet such a stance would stand up in court.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:47 am

One thing to remember is that the First Amendment only protects speech from the government. Private institutions are under no such obligation to protect all speech. This is how you can be punished or fired at work for racial or sexual slurs, the so-called "Fire" in a crowded theater exemption. If your speech causes direct and measurable harm to others in a private place the owners are not obligated to let you say it freely. As far as I understand it, this is how freedom of speech is usually interpreted legally, correct me if I'm wrong, please.

The bottom line is that this ruling would cause direct and measurable harm to a vulnerable population of lgbt students. The first plaintiff with the money for a good lawyer could get this overturned anyway because it's a really obvious end-run around antidiscrimination laws, just like every other bill inspired by religious conservatives with the word "freedom" in their names. A nice bit of Orwellian doublespeak. You have the "freedom" to support a return to 1890 social mores and nothing else in these scenarios.

I did see a couple of religious students from our school's Christian club making people aware of that linked petition and asking people to sign it, which I thought was very nice :flutterunsmith: (and I did, for all the good it will probably do, aka nil). A local Episcopalian church has even taken to having a lgbt breakfast once a month so they can make sure at-risk kids get at least one solid meal every once in a while and to build bridges with the community. It's nice to be reminded that Christians can live up to their beliefs and do good as well as bad.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Factory Factory (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:15 am

The intersection of religious morality and public policy is a very difficult and nuanced problem. Sure, the bible has lessons about keeping your prayer private rather than parading it and about letting what is Caeser's be Caeser's, but it also exhorts believers to spread the faith and help themselves and others avoid sin. As strongly as we feel about allowing and celebrating gay rights, that's at least how strong the opposition feels that these things are imperative to prevent.

It's easy to point to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and say it supports our position - hell, I know I feel that way. But that privileges our interpretation of scripture the same way we get upset at fundamentalists for privileging their own. That kind of argument doesn't work for the same reason a fundamentalist's arguments don't work on us - utter disagreement on the basic premises from which the argument draws. Sure, there are shitheads who don't really love the sinner and hate the sin like they say they do. There are also shitheads on our side of the argument - maybe not the same kind, definitely not with the kind of "success" anti-gay shitheads have accomplished, but shitheads nonetheless. But a shithead fight turns into a shithead war, and war is always about who loses less, not about who wins.

Most people are not shitheads, not intentionally. Most people are just ignorant assholes with high opinions of themselves who don't like being told they're wrong about something. That's the kind of fight we can win, because our side of the fight is centered around empathy and understanding and balancing feelings against gay rights against that basic fairness and empathy. In essence, all we have to do is stop being "the other guys" and a lot of what we want will follow. Again, easier said than done - in many ways, it's more natural for each side of the argument to keep othering each other, and that makes it easier to just... dismiss people as being wrong, rather than trying to convince them that you're right. A two-minute hate can be cathartic, I guess, but it hurts so much to see people - any people - indulging in one. :fluttersmith:

As for the specific jurisprudence of religion and the first amendment... It's been a while since I've studied that. It was in an undergrad course, and I haven't yet studied that in law school. But my educated guess gut analysis is that this policy would be vulnerable to a First Amendment challenge by, say, an atheist student who was a member of the campus GLBT organization. Assuming the school receives federal funding, that is. Things like tax exemption for churches and invocations at government functions are allowed because they generally promote the practice of religion, rather than specifically promoting specific religious beliefs (at least, that's the reasoning - it breaks down if you don't assume that everyone has religion or even just allow for non-Abrahamic religions). Allowing students to not-fund GLBT organizations only because of their religious beliefs would be a government endorsement of a specific religious belief. It'd be far better if it never passed at all, though.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:26 am

Oh, I didn't mean to sound nasty or mean in my post, but I suppose that bit about doublespeak might have been over the line. Sorry. It's hard not to be angry though when people constantly tell you you're subhuman scum and sometimes I hate this whole deal of having to have saintly patience. But I also don't want to be anything like them, which means not otherizing them or taking away their rights.

Re: legality, that's more or less what I was getting to say, except you were clearer about it. It would be better if it didn't get passed in the first place but it should be possible for a court challenge to overturn it, should worse come to worse.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by WhitemageofDOOM » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:31 am

[quote="Pony post_id=16246 time=1365153318 user_id=54] In essence, all we have to do is stop being "the other guys" and a lot of what we want will follow.[/quote]

Everything you said is important, and sometimes this thread conviently forgets.

But i doubt this will ever happen, the urban middle/upper class and the intelligentsia will always be "those people" to them, because well, we've never been reasonable human beings to them but outsiders fucking them over and telling them what to do, And usually getting our way about it.
Every time someone in this thread says it's just about "Gays are icky" i sorta moan, because it isn't, it absolutely isn't. The people who oppose gay rights have much much better reasons that involve resentment against the people promoting gay rights, gay rights is just the issue of the day. You don't stop being "The other guy" when you aren't even willing to sit down, listen, and assume they have good reasons for why they do what they do.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by West Filly (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:37 am

It's only endorsement of a specific view if people can only choose to remove their support of this one organisation. If people could remove their support of any organisation for any of their religious views, then it's not so bad. Hence my question, would someone with views on religion be able to withdraw their support from religious groups within the university that were opposed to their own religious view? For example, could an atheist say that it was against their scruples to supprt a Christian Union?

Of course, it's not really fair to say that. Once people can choose to give or withdraw their support, it then becomes a popularity contest. Minority groups get the biggest kicking and popular groups get all the $$$. Perhaps universities should distribute their funds by demand (need) and not by supply (popularity).
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Red Terra (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:49 am

Im curious if the monks in my country are free from taxes and actually benefit from perhaps being funded by the government. I mean, someone has to be paying for their tv's and computers
:v: (even if monks arent suppose to come in contact with technology)

I know a number of Thais go to the temples, offer cooked food (ALOT OF IT. To feed 10 people) and care packages just for a couple prayers. I mean, I would assume Christians would put in some money to donate to the religious institute but back home... You not only had to pay for all that food but you had to cook it yourself and bring it all the way to the temple whenever you want a couple prayers and blessings.

Regarding where my taxes go... I know some of our tax money goes to the military which is killing Thai muslims in the south of our country (over 6000 dead, with 160 dead being teachers) which i wholly do not support because admittedly, we havent treated the South very well over the century and it is land that we conquered and subjugated yet then again, the radical muslim elements are murdering teachers and children so...
:pinkieshrug:

Also, one strange thing i just noticed was that homosexuality in Thailand is weird. No, not homosexuality is a weird thing, but its perceived differently by the local people in weird ways. I mean, a number of City dwellers maybe have a gay friend or two, they hang out and have fun, they dont mind their homosexuality, but once he/she says they have a lover, then things become very ugly (tattle taling to the parents of the homosexual friend and other nonsense if they dont know yet. Worse case is if they start spreading the news around work/school, which then demonises the homsexual and has frequently led to him/her being fired and occasionally, committing suicide due to the shame and discrimination)
:fluttersmith:

I mean, i think a lot of Americans would be disgusted just by the mere sexual orientation of homosexuals but with thais, it's okay... Until they actually have romantic relationships
:pinkieshrug:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Factory Factory (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:49 am

[quote="In post_id=16249 time=1365154650 user_id=130]It's only endorsement of a specific view if people can only choose to remove their support of this one organisation. If people could remove their support of any organisation for any of their religious views, then it's not so bad. Hence my question, would someone with views on religion be able to withdraw their support from religious groups within the university that were opposed to their own religious view? For example, could an atheist say that it was against their scruples to supprt a Christian Union?
[/quote]

%20S.B.%2065-70%20The%20Religious%20Funding%20Exemption%20Bill.pdf]Here's the bill. It's called "The GLBT Funding Opt-Out Bill." It is only about the GLBT Resource Center, and only about opting out for religious reasons. Here's the operative language:
Therefore Let it be Enacted(1): That the Texas A&M Student Government Association shall support allowing students who object, for religious purposes, to the use of their student fees and tuition to fund this center to opt out of paying an amount equal to their share of the Center’s funding from their fee and tuition bills[.]
Of course, it's not really fair to say that. Once people can choose to give or withdraw their support, it then becomes a popularity contest. Minority groups get the biggest kicking and popular groups get all the $$$. Perhaps universities should distribute their funds by demand (need) and not by supply (popularity).
At least the university I went to already does the "take general fee, distribute based on organization proposals" thing. It's a pretty basic economic argument for doing that - a popularity contest is exactly what you want to avoid to avoid underfunding of organizations which provide for the public good - and that goes for all of them, not just the unpopular ones.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by West Filly (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:20 am

Then we are in agreement.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:30 am

PFF, your link is broken.

I can back up WooMod's point. I grew up poor as hell in a tiny rural town in central New York state. All of my extended family live in tiny-ass, dying communities scattered around New York and Pennsylvania, and a few have fled to Arizona, Florida, and California. Every single one is a Republican and hardcore conservative. Like my dad, for example, who when he gets angry refers to Obama as the "Head N-word" and likes to compare him to a monkey (and yet, he still likes Obama more than Mitt Romney... go figure).

When you're poor, you see every dollar that comes out of your pocket and goes to someone else theft, pure and simple. They all refuse to avail themselves of social services because they see it as demeaning, and because that money comes from some working stiff who doesn't have any. If you need help, tough shit, you try to ride it out. My dad absolutely refused to take welfare (once his unemployment ran out :rolleyes: ) and my family got screwed over so hard throughout the '80s because of that, because he would keep getting depressed and quitting jobs.

When you're poor, you know the rich are your enemies, and "rich" is loosely defined as "anyone who has more than I do." Hence all the hatred for "welfare queens." These people aren't the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" that D&D pontificators assume must all vote conservative. They don't have shit, they know it, and they know damn well they won't get rich if they don't win the lottery or some kind of lawsuit. They assume all politicians are corrupt, Republicans as well as Democrats. They just like the draconian social policies because they figure if they have to suffer, so should somebody else. They resent paying a cent in taxes because they have so little.

They aren't even evil. They can be very kind... to individuals. Even my dad, racist as he is, made friends with a woman from Ethiopia once and would go to her house, have lunch with her and her husband, and be outraged at what they went through there. I think there's something about extreme deprivation which just completely shuts you down. Everyone is sad, bitter, and angry half the time. Religion and TV are often their only escapes, and I guess Facebook these days since it's not hard to go to a library to use a computer.

And they're not wrong to hate our tax rate, because once you add in sales taxes, use taxes, gas taxes, etc., IIRC the average American pays something absurd like 40% of gross income as tax. I could be wrong, of course, it's not like I've made enough money to file since 1997.

But I have the same scars. I automatically distrust anyone who has more than I do, too. I have a gut-level hatred of Mitt Romney that I will never overcome, because he has so much and it's a visceral reaction to knowing that no matter how many people like me or however much I succeed, I was born one of life's losers in a genetic lottery. Am I envious? You bet I am, and I'm not proud of that. I'm ashamed. But I strongly doubt I'd be any better than him were the tables turned. (One reason I don't accept praise is I don't want it to go to my head, because the moment you believe your own reputation, you are well and truly screwed and you'll never recover from that. Look at how many creative people are ruined by too many good reviews and who stop trying because they believe everything they touch turns to gold. Just compare "Hey Jude" to "Silly Love Songs" or "Star Wars" to "Attack of the Clones.")

And when people try to make me feel better by saying "Those people are assholes! Those damn yokels" or whatever, they don't know it, but it's like they're spitting on me. I'm a yokel too. I'm not an urbanite, even if I don't mind living in cities. My roots aren't middle class or elite. And they aren't inherently evil, I'm single-handedly turning my mom's opinion around on LGBT issues just because she doesn't want to see me hurting. But I can't stand it when people glibly write off everyone from these backgrounds because I know damn well I'm being written off too.

And I also hate having to be told to keep my anger in check, because it comes off as unintentionally condescending. I had a distant family member refer to me as subhuman, do I get to be angry about that or do I have to be Jesus and turn the other cheek? Because I can't do it. I know we have to be patient but goddamn it you have to do something with the anger other than bottle it up and let it slowly kill you, and you can't always be perfect and saintly and take a deep breath. I'm sorry if it makes you sad, PFF, I truly am.

Sorry, this is all really OT and probably against the rules, so it might need to be deleted. But I just had to say something, I guess.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:44 am

Undeleted previous post by request.
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Factory Factory (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:53 am

[quote="Paperback post_id=16253 time=1365157802 user_id=1]PFF, your link is broken.[/quote]

Yeah, I know. I think the brackets in the URL break the BBCode, so whatever. :pinkieshrug:

As for the rest of the post, Paperback (which I saw before you soft-deleted it), I never meant you when I was talking about two minute's hate. Anger is a natural feeling and not wrong per se. I think your post and your point of view is very valuable, and you should consider un-deleting or reposting it.

What I was referring to was the knee-jerk "Those fuckers" that comes up whenever we hear about some opponent to gay rights, like they're literal Nazis and this makes it okay to dehumanize them. Dehumanizing people is what made literal Nazis what they were, and dehumanizing people isn't something only Nazis do, it's something humans do. It is possible THE core struggle of ethics and morality to remember to give even the most monstrous, evil person the basic dignity and consideration of a human being.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Madeline (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:43 am

Pony post_id=16255 time=1365159194 user_id=54][quote= wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:30 am
PFF, your link is broken.
Yeah, I know. I think the brackets in the URL break the BBCode, so whatever. :pinkieshrug:

As for the rest of the post, Paperback (which I saw before you soft-deleted it), I never meant you when I was talking about two minute's hate. Anger is a natural feeling and not wrong per se. I think your post and your point of view is very valuable, and you should consider un-deleting or reposting it.

What I was referring to was the knee-jerk "Those fuckers" that comes up whenever we hear about some opponent to gay rights, like they're literal Nazis and this makes it okay to dehumanize them. Dehumanizing people is what made literal Nazis what they were, and dehumanizing people isn't something only Nazis do, it's something humans do. It is possible THE core struggle of ethics and morality to remember to give even the most monstrous, evil person the basic dignity and consideration of a human being.[/quote]

I undeleted it, so people can read it. You're right, of course, and I struggle with that myself. It's very difficult to not just give in and yell, but that just brings everyone down to the same low level after a while.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Bigdog (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:45 am

I think there's room for some nuance, because "people who dislike GSMs" is a pretty goddamn huge and diverse ( :v: ) bubble on the Venn diagram.

The person who sits at home grumbling to themselves about those damn ivory-tower intellectuals telling themselves what to think about queers is a far cry from someone who goes out to support laws keeping GSMs as second-class citizens, who is in turn much better than someone who helps hound and harass a queer person to suicide, who in turn is better than someone who actively murders/lynches one. None of them is "right" but the one that at least manages to remain a semi-decent member of society about their bigotry is at least "okay" on paper. If there was no overwhelming societal atmosphere that tended to, like I said, keep GSMs as second class citizens at best and cause them serious mental/physical harm at worst, then I think we really could deal with the lower-class religious folks giving us dirty looks once in a while.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Snowfire (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:13 am

BackgroundPony wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:20 am
This comes across as 'all Christians think this way,' which is rather unfair, not to mention just obviously untrue. I know of at least myself, Kate, and Snowfire who are admitted Christians around here, and I really hope none of us have given anyone reason to think we're bigots. But I know that a lot of the loudest Christians out there are exactly like this. If one person could ever speak for that many, I'd love to offer an apology for that. I know it would be hollow, but still, I wish I could.
I don't think she's saying that BP. I'm sure Piney knows that there are decent, open-minded Christians out there like the three of us. It's just we aren't as vocal as the ones who act like they are dying on the cross because gay people might get married.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Doctor Wheeze (?) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:05 am

Pony post_id=16255 time=1365159194 user_id=54][quote= wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:30 am
PFF, your link is broken.
Yeah, I know. I think the brackets in the URL break the BBCode, so whatever. :pinkieshrug: [/quote]
You just need to encode the brackets, like this!
......:hatte:
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