Penny Arcade is dumb

[Bigdog]

fyi: "transgenderism" isn't a thing that exists, and it would be best to not refer to transgender people, identity, or issues as such. saying it like that gives an implication that transgender people are some sort of philosophy or ideology to be argued against.


And yeah, I can see that those incidents probably weren't born out of actual malice, but I do think that their defensiveness about them was real shitty. Sure, they apologized eventually, but it doesn't change that they decided to be real shitty towards those who criticized those 'jokes' or whatever the hell.

incidentally, and since you mention it, what would be the correct term? It occurs to me that I don't rightly know. Transgenderness?

[Mr. Big]

I hadn't read Foxtrot in years and what.

Bill Amend occasionally guests for webcomics. That's not even the first time he guested on PA:



Amend also guested on XKCD:

[Aria Genisi]

incidentally, and since you mention it, what would be the correct term? It occurs to me that I don't rightly know. Transgenderness?

no.

using "transgender people" works better and is more accurate.

[Bigdog]

no.

using "transgender people" works better and is more accurate.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about trans people, rather the quality or state? of being transgender (as a single word rather than four, obv)

like i would use "bisexuality" (or "pansexuality") or "queerness" to describe the analogous concepts w/r/t myself


e: not analogous as in "being trans is a sexual orientation", obviously, but analogous in that they refer to a part of who I am

[Aria Genisi]

being transgender, really.

like, people might say they are transgender, but there's no real unifying singular term to define it. it mostly just depends on the person, like I would say that I'm a transgender woman, or some hypothetical transgender man would call himself a transgender man , but there is no unifying term to describe it, like "transgenderness" (which isn't a term at all) or "transgenderism" (which is mostly used by shitheads to describe being transgender as some sort of "condition" or an ideology or something).

[Bremen]

being transgender, really.

like, people might say they are transgender, but there's no real unifying singular term to define it. it mostly just depends on the person, like I would say that I'm a transgender woman, or some hypothetical transgender man would call himself a transgender man , but there is no unifying term to describe it, like "transgenderness" (which isn't a term at all) or "transgenderism" (which is mostly used by shitheads to describe being transgender as some sort of "condition" or an ideology or something).

Look, I apologize for using the wrong term, but it rather feels like you're implying I am most likely a shithead for using the literal dictionary term. I'm not saying it's right and if people find it offensive I will endeavor not to use it in the future, language does change and connotations can be hurtful, but I think implying the most likely reason to use it is because they are a bad person is going too far.

I'll also add:

Yeah, that sort of thing is really awful and gross as hell. Like, it's one thing to actually make a mistake, own up to it when called out on it, and apologize. But when they start spewing garbage in response to a genuine complaint, and try to justify their garbage, then i'm gonna find it rather hard to be willing to overlook that if/when they decide to go back and apologize.

They weren't responding to genuine complaints, but the fact that people were literally calling them monsters about it on twitter (I'm sure plenty of people also helpfully tried to explain why what they said was hurtful, but you know Twitter). Would a perfect person not get worked up into a rage and quietly apologize for their mistake? Yeah. But I can also understand why they got defensive about it. I mean, I'm feeling kind of defensive here and you're being a million times nicer than the responses they got on twitter.

[Aria Genisi]

Look, I apologize for using the wrong term, but it rather feels like you're implying I am most likely a shithead for using the literal dictionary term. I'm not saying it's right and if people find it offensive I will endeavor not to use it in the future, language does change and connotations can be hurtful, but I think implying the most likely reason to use it is because they are a bad person is going too far.

I'm sorry if i implied that I thought you were a shithead for using that, but that wasn't my intention and I apologize. My meaning was that I was trying to explain why that term should be shyed away from using, and that by and large, many of the people who do use that term are the sorts of people who are intentionally hateful towards those who are transgender and would want to normalize their hate.

Again, I did not think you were a shithead, and I really just was trying to explain why the term shouldn't be used, and I'm sorry if I gave off the impression that I thought that of you.

They weren't responding to genuine complaints, but the fact that people were literally calling them monsters about it on twitter. Would a perfect person not get worked up into a rage and quietly apologize for their mistake? Yeah. But I can also understand why they got defensive about it. I mean, I'm feeling kind of defensive here and you're being a million times nicer than the responses they got on twitter.

I will be the first to admit that I do not know the exact messages going on, but I find it extremely hard to believe that "being literally called monsters" is the only instance of what was going on. And even if it was, it doesn't even remotely excuse deciding to be transphobic like that. Like, it might have come out accidentally when they were angry and defensive, but it also speaks to what kind of people they were at the time if they were willing to say that sort of shit. People don't just accidentally blurt out that sort of hate unless they believe it in some fashion.

However, yeah, that was then. Now? For all I know, maybe they've learned, they've changed, and their apologies were genuine. But given how their general attitudes (from what little I've seen, granted) seem unchanged from years ago, it's still going to be sticking out in my mind as a reason why I don't care for PA at all.

If you still like PA, and they aren't pulling a bunch of shit like those past incidents, then hey, go for it. It's just that I don't have any incentive to want to like PA at all.

[Aria Genisi]

As an aside, any of you remember that On The Rainslick Precipice of whatever games that showed up years ago? I thought they kinda were neat at the time. I'm a bit curious on how well they hold up (or don't hold up) these days.

[Bremen]

Alright, I shouldn't have leapt to conclusions about what you meant. I apologize as well.

For what it's worth... I wouldn't even consider defending Mike or Jerry if his comments were of the nasty attacks I often see from the alt-right. I only treat them as forgivable because they always struck me as more just having mental definitions tied to biology rather than sex identity, which is honestly something a lot of cisgender individuals like me have to struggle with. But that's probably way beyond the scope of this thread, and I certainly wont claim the things they said weren't hurtful.

[BackgroundPony]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about trans people, rather the quality or state? of being transgender (as a single word rather than four, obv)

like i would use "bisexuality" (or "pansexuality") or "queerness" to describe the analogous concepts w/r/t myself


e: not analogous as in "being trans is a sexual orientation", obviously, but analogous in that they refer to a part of who I am

i was curious enough to googleize it, because i wasn't really sure what the right term would be either now that you mention it, and found this article. the tl;dr of its argument is that if you try to make the word into an '-ism' then you risk implying that a base fact about someone's existence should be lumped in with social or political movements (environmentalism, feminism, nationalism, etc.). it suggests just using 'trans issues' or 'trans people' or whatever, as appropriate.

also re: the dumb pa comic that mentioned rape. i'd say they're not using rape as a punchline, but they are using it to intensify their punchline. the basic joke was around mmorpg quests of the form 'captives rescued: 5/6'. once you save the requisite number of prisoners, you're done. any other poor soul chained to the dungeon walls gets completely ignored as you run back to turn in your quest. usually the game won't even allow you to interact with them at all. it is an incongruous situation that lends itself to a joke, although a rather obvious one that every mmo player had probably thought of before. they just wanted to up the absurdity and edginess factor of the joke by having a captive begging for rescue after the hero had already filled the required number of saved captives, and bemoaning his terrible situation involving being 'raped to sleep every night by the dickwolves'. ooh so edgy. would have worked just as well with any other over-the-top horrible thing. stabbed to sleep every night by the knifewolves, i don't know.

all that said, i wasn't entirely on board for the original outcry for that reason. but on later introspection i realized that splitting hairs between 'a rape joke' vs. 'a joke that involves rape' is pedantic at best, and is exactly the kind of thing 'men's rights' assholes would do. and i really really don't want to do anything to poke a toe into their caustic swimming pool. and the pa guys being total jerks about it sure didn't help, of course.

[stuff]

yeah but penny arcade

[Bigdog]

being transgender, really.

like, people might say they are transgender, but there's no real unifying singular term to define it. it mostly just depends on the person, like I would say that I'm a transgender woman, or some hypothetical transgender man would call himself a transgender man , but there is no unifying term to describe it, like "transgenderness" (which isn't a term at all) or "transgenderism" (which is mostly used by shitheads to describe being transgender as some sort of "condition" or an ideology or something).

Eh, I know you're talking in good faith (or at least I have no real reason to think otherwise) but I still feel like you're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm getting after and making suggestions that do not slot into the same linguistic function as I have in my head.

at the risk of belaboring an already protracted derail:

Consider the following pairs of phrases that I might use, first to refer to myself using an adjective and then to talk about the concept or characteristic the adjective refers to:

"I am male"
"my maleness"

"I am a white man"
"my whiteness"

"I am a bisexual man"
"my bisexuality" [this one is obvs irregular, but the point is there's a perfectly good word for it]

"I am a queer man"
"my queerness"

"I am a cis man"
"my ....???"

i would've said "cisgenderness" or "cisness", but you tell me that's wrong, which is like, ok, my first instincts are wrong sometimes, it happens, but I'd like to understand why and I definitely should know the actual correct term to use & why "-ness" is wrong in this case

you very courteously let us know why "transgenderism" is problematic and it makes perfect sense because the suffix "ism" does more often denote philosophies or whatever (Marxism, fascism, etc.). Great! But I'm not seeing where it's similarly inappropriate, disrespectful, or otherizing to make a -ness compound word, because if anything, I've just shown that that's a very common, natural and perfectly acceptable (if sometimes informal) way of constructing noun forms out of adjective forms when it comes to parts of a human being's makeup or identity.

(As an aside, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm sealioning you. I'm not trying to personally Be Right On The Internet. As I said above, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's just that language is my stock in trade, and I think understanding not only what we should say, but why we should say it, and avoiding linguistic bubbe meises, is a worthwhile goal.)

[sharkmafia]

After getting my memory refreshed about some of the PA controversies thanks to this thread i can safely say that, although i would still rescue tycho from a burning building, i might, in addition to telling him his comic sucks, 'accidentally' drop him in the mud after carrying him out

[Aria Genisi]

i would've said "cisgenderness" or "cisness", but you tell me that's wrong, which is like, ok, my first instincts are wrong sometimes, it happens, but I'd like to understand why and I definitely should know the actual correct term to use & why "-ness" is wrong in this case

you very courteously let us know why "transgenderism" is problematic and it makes perfect sense because the suffix "ism" does more often denote philosophies or whatever (Marxism, fascism, etc.). Great! But I'm not seeing where it's similarly inappropriate, disrespectful, or otherizing to make a -ness compound word, because if anything, I've just shown that that's a very common, natural and perfectly acceptable (if sometimes informal) way of constructing noun forms out of adjective forms when it comes to parts of a human being's makeup or identity.

(As an aside, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm sealioning you. I'm not trying to personally Be Right On The Internet. As I said above, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's just that language is my stock in trade, and I think understanding not only what we should say, but why we should say it, and avoiding linguistic bubbe meises, is a worthwhile goal.)

Yeah, no, I get what you're asking, it's just that what I think the sort of simpler word or phrase you're asking for and trying to look for just does not exist to my knowledge. Or like in the case of "transness" if it is an actual word (i personally don't know), it's really just not something that i've seen at all, nor have I needed that sort of word to begin with.

[Perrydotto]

Other people have said better and smarter things in here already so I'm just gonna go back to my initial point about why I find laughing about people like the PA folks cathartic

It's not about being like "omg look they are the worst people on the planet". As horrifying and intense society's encounters with the alt-right have been, not every single bad thing is on that level, or even on any kind of extreme at all. "Someone is being a dick" is a massive sliding scale based on different perspectives, circumstances, contexts, etc. and ultimately will always be subjective. However, things society at large, or at least subgroups of it will see as "being a dick" can at least sort of unify and change over time, and establish certain standards. Rape jokes are one such thing - It's becoming more of a standard that rape jokes/careless use of rape as part of a punchline or statement are considered tasteless, and to be avoided. Therefor, people tend to get upset or displeased if they see rape used like that, certainly more than people used to get upset over it.

Penny Arcade, CAD, gamer blogs and their ilk are not all some bile-spewing monsters who are fully aware of the ways society tends to feel about things and abuse this knowledge to hurt as many people as possible. Again, they are not the alt-right. Some parts of the gamer culture have overlap with the alt-right, and the more extreme ones have been relentlessly recruited for the alt-right (see Gamergate, for instance), but that most certainly does not apply to everyone, not even close. PA and Co. are absolutely not equipped in the way the worst of the worst are - But that's part of my point. The alt-right is intensely aware of the ways they can upset the nebulous left, even if they're not always particularly effective at it. I would argue PA and their kind lack the social care or awareness to willingly do harm, but that's part of the problem, because they're not keen on becoming more aware in general.

Again, sure, they are not going out of their way to hurt people. But the kind of crusty, ignorant behaviour that they still consider to be a funny shtick most of the time is part of an increasingly dated and unfortunate mentality among gamers in particular and other subcultures in general. Sure, they might not have made more rape jokes since their crappy handling of the dickwolves situation (or at least not any on a level that made me aware of them), but they certainly still think it's funny to maintain the personas of grumpy aging gamers who don't get what the kids like these days and who don't care to learn, either. It's not about "PA don't like this videogame I like!!!" or something of that sort, it's about the underlying attitude with which they so happily continue to be dismissive, smug and condescending. Comedy perpetuates attitudes just like other things do. These attitudes are still so prevalent among gamers in general and being clung to with such gusto that it's tough for me not to be so, so tired of it. These people are still so proud and so defensive over the fact that they were supposedly the first to enjoy videogames that they still somehow act like the arbiters of what a good game is and what isn't, as if gaming hasn't always been something for all ages and genders, now even more so than ever.

Somebody doesn't have to go out of their way to be a shithead to still continously reinforce an ignorant, defensive and often bigoted culture's feelings, and PA is one of the most prominent examples of this in my eyes. And yeah, as a bisexual woman who is really invested in games as a medium, I get some dumb satisfaction out of mocking said culture's feelings if they are this lame and badly aged. The people that tell me that something isn't a real game or just for casuals or whatever are the same people who will laugh at Penny Arcade and feel being agreed with. Whether PA intends to make those gamers feel good about their defensive attitudes doesn't matter at some point when they are clearly happy to still do the same thing over and over 20 years later, and how poorly they can react when they actually slip up in a big way.

Basically, call me a stick in the mud, but I can't look at something like Penny Arcade and just think "hey they are being silly about videogames" when their way of being silly about it looks like nothing but old men yelling at clouds to me. And if the comic is supposed to be selfaware about this and make us actually laugh about how Gabe and Tycho are nothing but old men yelling at clouds, then the writing, art and surrounding stuff do a pisspoor job of communicating this.

[Bremen]

Reading your post, Perry, I think I understand a lot about how you're thinking and why you feel that way - but I think you may be mistaken in your basic assumptions.

There is a huge problem with toxic gamer culture, I will be the first to admit that. However, I don't necessarily agree with you that comics like PA encourage it, or even do nothing to combat it. The humor might be rough, and I certainly don't hold it against anyone for disliking it, but toxic gamers are also one of their most frequent targets. Similarly, I'd also point out that the Penny Arcade forums, where I'm quite active, are quite liberal leaning, extremely condemning of Gamergate, and supportive when it comes to GLBT issues. This isn't meant as a defense of the creators themselves - they don't participate in the forum - but I would submit it as strong evidence that there is either no correlation between reading the comic and these sorts of harmful attitudes, or an actual negative correlation.

This is, admittedly, not a rigorous proof; it's quite possible there's plenty of toxic gamers who read PA and just avoid talking about their personal opinions on the forums - but it's enough to make me skeptical without evidence that this sort of comic promotes those attitudes.

Additionally, the Penny Arcade expos were pretty well known when they launched for trying to be welcoming, and eliminating what they perceived as harmful attitudes and actions like the practice of booth babes - which are banned - and having panels on acceptance and stopping harassment. I've heard that these measures are not really successful in combating the endemic problems with gamer culture, but at least they're attempts to do so.

[sharkmafia]

Yo that thing you just said is hells of fallacious

there's no need to be defensive about liking+partaking of PA-media stuff but on the other hand the fact that many/most people who like those things aren't assholes doesnt prove shit and isn't really relevant to the discussion

thats all for now dog im bed

[Perrydotto]

People and the things they make are complex and don't tend to have one single direction of morally good or bad, I fully understand that. I know the PA folks founded Child's Play, I know that PAX is certainly not the worst gamer convention of its kind (though a quick google reveals they are still struggling with being both inclusive while also still being mostly dominated by pleasing white male gamers). Not everything PA does is bad, not every reader of PA is a bad person. Again, I fully recognize that.

But I admittedly have a hard time understanding how you would like me to prove that PA and their kind actively encourage bad behaviour. I don't have the means to conduct deep studies and I certainly doubt someone being a crusty elite gamer on Twitter will say "btw Penny Arcade taught me everything I know". All I can tell you is that the dismissive attitudes of people like the PA creators are part of the big overarching shittiness of gamer culture, and how it tries to stay purposely toxic and insular to push out new takes on the medium, new creators, and sometimes basically anyone who isn't white, cis, and male. They are not the biggest part, I don't think, but a culture's attitudes is made of many little pieces, and the attitude of the PA folk and creators of their kind has a big reach.

Are you familiar with the concept of "paths of least resistance" in the context of sociology? Here is an excellent writeup on the matter, but I will try to summarize to explain why I'm bringing it up: A lot of the things in social groups and society that surround us require us to make a choice about how we behave. That choice can be sometimes simple and sometimes hard, often subconcious too. Often, we'll pick paths of least resistance just kind of by default, because we generally expect those to be best for us and our success in life. Even playing by the rules in a boardgame is such a choice, and playing as the game expects you to is a path of least resistance, because playing against the rules would immediately label us as an unfun or mean person to play with. A boardgame like Monopoly can make perfectly nice people act like greedy jerks as a result, simply because the path of least resistance is to play by the rules, and doing that means to act like a greedy jerk in order to hopefully win the game. The same general concept applies to things like racial or gender privilege, patriarchy, etc. - People play along in order to benefit and hopefully be safe.

My core issue with a lot of very privileged people who act indignant about their privilege is when they consistently choose those paths of least resistance down to a fault. Nobody is inherently a bad person for not wanting to go against the grain, no. Again, depending on what kind of social concepts we are looking at, it can be intensely dangerous to go against the grain. But I do believe that people like the creators of Penny Arcade are perfectly fine reinforcing shitty stereotypes and crusty attitudes about their hobby because it's the easiest, and it grants them a bunch of money/influence/respect/what have you. Thus, they clearly benefit from a culture where being a crusty gamer is the path of least resistance. I have no idea how rich the PA creators are, but I imagine they are pretty well off, and generally happy with their views on life, gaming, and business. And it's perfectly safe for them, because they benefit from being white, cis, male and making their living in a subculture where being white, cis, and male is a huge benefit. Their efforts in charity and anti-harassment in places like PAX are noted, and appreciated, but they look like drops in the bucket to someone like me when they still proudly post rambling smug blog posts or act like indignant dicks on Twitter. Mistakes happen, but if they keep happening and the culprits are owners of a comic read by millions daily and several successful, large gaming conventions, yet they can continue doing their business with comparatively few repercussions or consequences, you gotta wonder just how much they benefit from playing along with the general attitude of a culture. You gotta wonder if a creator in a similiar position in a different culture or of a different identity would have been able to act like a giant dick and would have been able to continue spouting regressive views with little consequences to their livelihood.

Basically, everything about the PA creators tells me that they live a very safe, cushioned life, and are happy to continue without care or awareness for the privileges they benefit from in order to live said safe, cushioned life. I don't begrudge them for making a living with something they love, I begrudge them for seemingly not caring what kind of ways of thinking and acting they happily make use of for being as successful as they are. Nobody is required to be some sort of a massive anti-establishment rebel, but if just one of your several conventions draws 80k visitors yearly and millions see what you say, write and joke about daily, it would behoove you to at least think about what your reach does, and how examining the privileges you happily benefit from could be good for you and everyone else around you. I think PA and their kind don't do this or at least not nearly enough to actually pull consequences, and their comedy, attitudes, etc. are strong indicators of this. Their attitudes strongly overlap with the crusty ones of the loud gamer crowd at large, and they are consistently communicating that they are okay with it.

Like whatever comics you like, but nothing exists in a vacuum, especially not something with the reach of Penny Arcade, and I simply ask to be aware of that.

[Fizzbuzz]

pee pee doo doo, it is a bad comic

[West Filly]

I'm not as well researched on PA or societal issues as some here. My main beef with internet comics is that the visuals are often as bland as the jokes. They're the cheap 90s sitcom of comic book genres.

I'll share a curse with you that I have: ever since I first had that "90s sitcom" thought, I can hear a laugh track at the end of almost every sentence whenever I read these kinds of comics.

[West Filly]

If the comic is bad enough, you can even bring it into the 00s by adding "bazinga" after the snarky punchline

[Daikatuna]

"video games" is the "bazinga"

[Daikatuna]

i meant that as a joke, but the more i think about it

the more "video games" is the "bazinga"

[Daikatuna]

shit, i cracked the code

[West Filly]

AUGH

[Fizzbuzz]

If only there were a Penny Arcade animated series so that we could replace the laugh track with (or just add) things like screaming or a vacuum cleaner or that cockatoo or Tidus's laugh

[Daikatuna]

HA HA HA HA

[BackgroundPony]

the radio said, 'no pppp, you are the demons'
and then pppp was the soapbox

[Daikatuna]

we have always been the soapbox

[Daikatuna]

there is no shitposting in peepeepeepee

[Octavia]

If only there were a Penny Arcade animated series

After watching the CAD animated series, no.

[Daikatuna]

i remember that

[Daikatuna]

i...remember that...

[Daikatuna]

[Mad Surge]

*falls off a roof* *ragdolls* B-U

[Daikatuna]

*kicks "games are bad" bilboard*

[Mad Surge]

HOLD THE PRESSES

LET ME RUIN IT FOR YOU ALL

[Daikatuna]

fuck

[Perrydotto]

voice actors gotta eat, too

[Mr. Big]

After watching the CAD animated series, no.

There was a "PvP" animated series, tho

and it was done by the same people that produced the CAD series