The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP:FiM

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Scuderia (?) » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:30 pm

Twilight wrote:As another counter point, if I may, have people here played The World Ends With You?
Twilight, I'd like to introduce you to my friend, Mr Orange Fluffy Sheep :-P

There's that one scene:

Click for Fullsize


Click for Fullsize

Rarity is catching carelessly flung dresses, and needs to be reminded that it's run to the rescue to save Canterlot, again.


Click for Fullsize

and in the next she's slugging a Changeling with a certain relish.

I've always seen Rarity as marching to a slightly different tune than everyone else is.
And add to that all the ways she's built herself up, and how there's really no other way for her but there's no other way for her but down, it's a combination for a likable character that always suffers indignities both major and minor.
Aramek wrote: Well, if so, only because you, for some inconceivable reason view anything Rarity has done in any negative light at all. :vogue:
She's just so awesome and perfect and good at everything, and, well, just plain better than everyone else in the show. :iiaia:
:ohboy: :"Hey Rarity!"
:vogue: :"Language, dear. Hay is for horses."
:smirk: :"Um, right. How tall are you?"
:vogue: :"One moment. I'll retrieve my measuring tape."
Image :
Click for Fullsize
Just as I expected!


Can we talk about someone else now? :iamapony: It's a month or so until season 3.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by AlliterativeAxolotl » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Twilight wrote:Well, at least Rarity isn't like Celestia, an evil puppeteer that manipulates behind the scenes, forcing the one pony that would die for her, to near ruination. :gotcha:
:equestria: What do you know about the burden of ruling over a kingdom? That's hard business, you know, being all nice and honest never works out because other rulers suddenly believe you've gone soft, and this often results in invasions and general unhappiness for everyone involved. And if you want to get anything done you have to use tricks and need to act all hush-hush, lest any opposition in the royal family or in the ranks of nobility might try to use the situation to their own gain, those backstabby no-goods.

How Celestia manages that crazy magical place of hers I've got no clue. But for questions like that we have Grilox, who will certainly love to discuss with you about this topic :v:


vvvvv Or maybe not. :starity:
Last edited by AlliterativeAxolotl on Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by DasNasty » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:30 pm

Twilight wrote:Well, at least Rarity isn't like Celestia, an evil puppeteer that manipulates behind the scenes, forcing the one pony that would die for her, to near ruination. :gotcha:
I really hope you're joking, because if a Tyrant Celestia argument pops up here I will be very upset. Tyrant Celestia is bullshit, there is NO suggestion she's a tyrant. At all. The end.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Orange Fluffy Sheep (?) » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:40 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:Twilight, I'd like to introduce you to my friend, Mr Orange Fluffy Sheep :-P
I'm trying to not get in the middle of this as I sorta need to moderate it.

That this is a Rarity argument and also involves TWEWY is making it really hard.
:snoop: Image :snoop:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Big Boss (?) » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:02 pm

DasNasty wrote:
I really hope you're joking, because if a Tyrant Celestia argument pops up here I will be very upset. Tyrant Celestia is bullshit, there is NO suggestion she's a tyrant. At all. The end.
Calm down, it's a gag. Jeez. Cartoon horses, people.

DasNasty

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by DasNasty » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:06 pm

kefkafloyd wrote:
Calm down, it's a gag. Jeez. Cartoon horses, people.
You're right, it's just that the argument really does float around a lot unironically. But that doesn't mean Twi's post is the same, and I apologize.

Timber72

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:28 pm

I apologize, I was being facetious to get a reaction. I didn't think it would be taken that negatively.

There are of course things about Celestia that aren't explained in the show, but she isn't outright evil or a tyrant. Her character motive can be a mystery at times. Did she know Twilight's future friends before she even went to Ponyville? After all, the odds of Twilight making the exact amount of friends that happened to all embody a different unique aspect of an element of harmony are incredibly low. Nero zero in fact. So what was Celestia doing during those first two episodes? Was she kidnapped? Did she hide away and let NMM rampage because the only way to save her sister was to have her defeated by other ponies?

Who knows, that's what makes Celestia interesting. There is a lot of hidden motives.

Personally? I assume it's plot holes and quick writing. They needed to come up with a pilot fast before the writers were familiar with the characters/world and had a chance to get into a groove. Often times the pilot episodes are the weakest. Many would argue that is the same case for MLP. This can be found how NMM's eternal night is explained (in out of show comments) by Faust that it wouldn't have killed all ponies. Seems like retconning. It happens.
:pinkieshrug:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Doctor (?) » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:45 pm

I always thought Celestia's actions in that first episode were just a hail-Mary play. Celestia had imprisoned her sister for trying to bring about the Ponyacalypse. She defeated NMM/Luna on her own, and NMM/Luna would not accept, or ask for forgiveness. Fast forward 1000 years later, and Celestia knows she is going to have to defeat NMM/Luna again, she also knows that she represents that which NMM/Luna resents. But, Celestia wanted her sister back. I think she gave Twilight the book to lead her down the right path, relinquished her control over the elements, and sent her her to Ponyville in the small hope that her sister could be saved. Celestia knew the only way to get Luna back was for someone else to defeat NMM.

The risk Celestia took depends on how powerful you think she is. Do you think she could have defeated NMM without the Elements? Were the Mane 6 in danger? I think she could have, that her concern was never about defeating NMM, she knew that could be done, her concern was getting Luna back.

Have an Egophiliac visual aid. :yay:
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Frosthawk (?) » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:57 pm

That picture just strikes me in the middle of my heart every time I see it.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by CorvusCaw (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:30 am

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:
Twilight, I'd like to introduce you to my friend, Mr Orange Fluffy Sheep :-P

There's that one scene:

Click for Fullsize


Click for Fullsize

Rarity is catching carelessly flung dresses, and needs to be reminded that it's run to the rescue to save Canterlot, again.


Click for Fullsize

and in the next she's slugging a Changeling with a certain relish.
Precisely.... I'm saying that we need more balance between bottom Rarity and top Rarity.
ImageImageImageImageImage

Timber72

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:57 am

Forgive me that this is long. I spent a while thinking about the different angles, patterns, and dead ends. I followed the evidence given, and tried my best to logically explain how I think it all happened using the best probability: :ponynet:
The Doctor wrote:I always thought Celestia's actions in that first episode were just a hail-Mary play. Celestia had imprisoned her sister for trying to bring about the Ponyacalypse. She defeated NMM/Luna on her own, and NMM/Luna would not accept, or ask for forgiveness. Fast forward 1000 years later, and Celestia knows she is going to have to defeat NMM/Luna again, she also knows that she represents that which NMM/Luna resents. But, Celestia wanted her sister back. I think she gave Twilight the book to lead her down the right path, relinquished her control over the elements, and sent her her to Ponyville in the small hope that her sister could be saved. Celestia knew the only way to get Luna back was for someone else to defeat NMM.

The risk Celestia took depends on how powerful you think she is. Do you think she could have defeated NMM without the Elements? Were the Mane 6 in danger? I think she could have, that her concern was never about defeating NMM, she knew that could be done, her concern was getting Luna back.

Have an Egophiliac visual aid. :yay:
[img]]

Actually, that's an angle that didn't get covered before. Even if Twilight and company failed, could she have still defeated her sister without the elements? Assuming she could, it does solve that dilemma of the world forever being in torment due to a reckless gambit. I suppose the only question left then is were Twi and co. in danger? Well, there are a few avenues to go down with this road. The two dangerous happenstances were the cliff slide, and the manticore. Twilight could have easily kept sliding, slipped, and fell a very long way. The manitocre could have eaten or stung a party member. The question that arises here, would a member have actually died/become severely hurt or would cartoon physics take over? It's hard to say really. Evidence exists for both sides.

Hypothetical: If the answer is yes, cartoon physics would come into play, that still seems a bit mean of Celestia, but I could forgive her since Twilight would have embarked on this adventure regardless of the hidden masterminding. Nobody is in any real danger. I don't like this method though because it takes away a large impact of the entire arc, and any real consequence in the world.
If the answer is no, they really could have died, that doesn't look very good for Celestia to put innocent ponies in harms way for her own bad blood. Before I get jumped, I'm not saying she's evil or a tyrant again, I'm just saying it kind of puts a wrench in this entire line or reasoning.

I suppose the only real out at this point is: Celestia was watching, waiting to swoop in and save them all with magic if it got bad enough. She didn't before, because she had an omnipresent view of the scenes (unlike the viewer). She knew Twi was going to be caught, she knew Fluttershy could defeat the manticore. It's really really stretching it, but it does work.

So then, what's the last issue that needs to be covered? The 6 friends that happen to hold the exact talents needed for the elements of harmony. I'm not happy with "She just took a chance!" She had to have at least some information on this before just charging in.

This is the 1000 year old Celestia we are talking about! :pcstare: Not Rainbow Dash after all. :v:

My final theory? Celestia rigged it so those particular ponies would be the main event organizers. That's the only link left, and it fits very well. Celestia did know about those ponies and their personalities, she made Twilight interact with them. Everything after that, was up to her apprentice, who she had hoped was trained well enough as a good pony to complete the task.


TL;DR

:speakest:
-Twilight becomes the element of magic. Some time between her apprenticeship and NMM's return, a plan is concocted.
-Celestia surveys Ponyville for suitable ponies to wield the other 5 elements.
-She rigs it so they are the main event coordinators.
-Twilight is given the book and instructed to go to Ponyville with a subtle hint: "Make some friends!"
-Celestia raps up her duties, and bows out. Watching from a safe distance.
-Episode happens, we all know what transpires.

I apologize if this breaks some weird fan fiction rule. That's not my intention. I'm following the evidence given to discover the hidden motivations behind one of the most mysterious and interesting characters of the show in an attempt to present that her character is more than just a pretty pony princess cutout.

--
Edit: 635 words, I think I have a problem or I really like ponies :starity:
Last edited by Timber72 on Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Scuderia (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:07 am

Oh no! DEBT BOMB wrote:
I'm trying to not get in the middle of this as I sorta need to moderate it.

That this is a Rarity argument and also involves TWEWY is making it really hard.
Mwa ha ha ha! Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by PhoolCat (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:56 am

e: stupid iPhone lying about how many pages there were…

Celestia is Dumbledore: setting up Twilight in a sink-or-swim situation to prepare her for future EVENTS… :gotcha:

Also Phoenix.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by dilettante » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:34 am

Maaaaaan I missed some good words here. Like, lots of cool words. Might as well chime in to some extent.

I really like the idea of the Celestia gambit. There was never any evidence that Celestia's disappearance was intrinsically linked to NMM's appearance. She was simply "gone," with no further explanation. I think it's cool to think about it in that manner, where the whole thing was a way to make amends with her sister without making the whole thing worse. You'd develop a lot of spite over 1000 years of imprisonment too. Kiiiiiinda put Twilight in a rough place, since she had to basically make friends, learn about the elements, find the elements, and then find a way to employ their power in the time frame of a day. A bit unrealistic? But nothing's too much of a challenge for Celestia's top student! :gotcha:

...aaaaaand Rarity. Rarity talk was cool. I dug it. I've always wondered if Rarity was always seen as "the most developed character" because she possibly occupied the most stereotypical role in most people's heads at first. I'm sure a bunch of people, watching the first episode thought, "oh jeez, the fashionista character. Do they need one of these in every gen?" when, well, it was quite the opposite. I haven't watched previous generations, and so I cannot comment on what development went on for the fashion-oriented characters then, but the fact that Rarity came off as the anti-stereotype of what we imagine a whiny, prissy pony would be may have made her better in some people's eyes. I mean, the fact that many of her episodes show her being tempted by the high, clean life, only to then choose the morally favorable direction shows that she's definitely more than just a cardboard cutout. It's always been pretty hard to predict what she's gonna do, and I feel like that original nagging thought of, "oh she's the prude" has contributed to that.

And there was a point Headless made, I think, that in A Dog and Pony Show, Rarity acted like what she could have been. The Rarity made of complainium would have been excruciating for everyone, and it only seemed to further highlight the fact that Rarity is cool pony.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Kraps » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:01 am


Click for Fullsize


I think she didn't know exactly what would happen when she sent Twilight to Ponyville but she had faith that everything would work out. I think she really could not have defeated NMM by herself, much less return her sister. She just went with her gut. Her goddess-princess gut.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Headless Horse (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:07 am

"...And my guesses have usually been good."

Timber72

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:38 am

Kraps wrote:
Click for Fullsize


I think she didn't know exactly what would happen when she sent Twilight to Ponyville but she had faith that everything would work out. I think she really could not have defeated NMM by herself, much less return her sister. She just went with her gut. Her goddess-princess gut.
Actually, there are a couple of key things she said there. I don't like using DA comments as any indication of canon, but since we are here:

Lauren says: "She may have sensed that Twilight was the filly she was looking for." <-indicates she did in fact have a plan to find a champion. She was 'looking for a filly'. For what? To fight NMM and wield the elements as the most rare and elusive element, magic. Lauren says she didn't give any other fillies that test. She had watched/was watching Twilight and 'sensed' she was special, sent the spike egg out as a test, and she was right. She had found her champion.

I believe her saying "She knew only a bit what would happen with the elements" doesn't refer to that day in Ponyville as exact. I believe it refers to her entire plan to save NMM, find a champion, and let them wield the elements to defeat her. Her comment is still being said from the past tense of when Celestia found her champion, as that's what they were mainly talking about.


Still, I'm given them all the benefit of the doubt with this and my last post. I assume it's all retconning and filling in writer blanks after the source was complete.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:59 am

Twilight wrote: Still, I'm given them all the benefit of the doubt with this and my last post. I assume it's all retconning and filling in writer blanks after the source was complete.
So long as everything fits, makes sense, and expands upon the characters, does it even matter if it was entirely planned out from the beginning? Also, it's not a retcon if it doesn't actually contradict past continuity.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Headless Horse (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:09 pm

I just really like how we keep finding out that Lauren was basically keeping all these worldbuilding details secret from herself.

So when she spent S2 saying over and over that "you'd have to ask the writers" about this or that, she wasn't just being coy. :gotcha:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Jupiter » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:20 pm

My interpretation (I'm never using the word headcannon and you can't make me) is that after 1000 years of festering NMM was way more powerful than Celestia, and that literally the only thing that could stop her was the Elements wielded by six ponies of appropriate personalities in the glow of a fresh, unforced, organic friendship. Celestia could use them to some extent, because she's a God-Thing, but either A) NMM was too powerful to even be sent back to the moon by Celestia on her own or B) Only EOH + 6 Ponies + New Friendship was powerful enough to restore Luna, though Celestia could have returned her to the moon for another 1000 years.

I kinda like B because it means Celestia gambled with the life of the Mane 6 and possibly all mortal life on Pony Planet just to get her God-Thing sister back, which seems more like the kind of thing an immortal would do! Image

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Scuderia (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:27 pm

I thought that "This Space Intentionally Left Blank" was obvious. We're missing Applejack's parents, too.

I know we like worldbuilding, it's a testament to the show's setting that that we're asking for that kind of detail, and we've also grown up on Tolkien whose posthumously published books (that is, not LOTR), are little more than worldbuilding,
but I'm if asked to describe the the show I say it's an 'ensemble comedy-fantasy'. There's a lot more in the show bible about the main six's relationships to each other than the world they live in. There are a few minutes about Celestia being Twilight's personal mentor, but the majority of the next episode is about Spike and Twilight's relationship. (FWIW Twilight as Spike's irritable older sister with Spike being more or less the straight man is a great addition to the show.)

I don't watch very many cartoons or TV in general, so I can only compare the ones that I've seen.
Adventure Time is seems to be a lot more about situations that Finn and Jake find themselves in rather than their friendship. Of course guys don't like thinking about that kinda mushy stuff. :lol:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Daikatuna (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:22 pm

The only pure world building episode is Hearts Warming Eve, everything else is mostly about the plot and characters with the world being expanded as needed. As much as we may like it, the worldbuiling is only brought up when needed.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Doctor (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:30 pm

PhoolCat wrote:e: stupid iPhone lying about how many pages there were…

Celestia is Dumbledore: setting up Twilight in a sink-or-swim situation to prepare her for future EVENTS… :gotcha:

Also Phoenix.
Headless Horse wrote:"...And my guesses have usually been good."

I really can't imagine that that Dumbledore (and similar characters like Obi-Won, and Gandalf)) wasn't at least partly an inspiration for Celestia.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Wonkadoo » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:03 pm

:pcstare: "I am no longer Celestia the Pink, whom you destroyed. I am Celestia the White."

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Scuderia (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:05 pm

:ohboy: :"Are your wings still pretty?"

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Doctor (?) » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:17 pm

:pcstare: "Behold the lord of Ponies, I will keep my speed to allow lesser ponies to keep up"

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Wonkadoo » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:38 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote: :ohboy: :"Are your wings still pretty?"
:pcstare: "A fool, but an honest fool, you remain, Sweetie Belle."
:pcstare: "Now let us be off. I will light the way."

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by fenster » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:53 pm

Ashenai wrote:I kind of disliked her until Suited for Success (which, along with Sonic Rainboom, were the two episodes that really cemented this show as something special in my mind.) I guess I just dismissed her as the usual fashion diva stereotype that exists in every other show; there were plenty of hints earlier on that she was different, but SfS really let her shine :vogue:
Late response, but I liked that catty fashion diva.... :fluttersmith:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:55 pm

And then the thread de-evolved into 1 line emotication. :pinkieshrug:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Pineapple » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:04 pm

fenster wrote:
Late response, but I liked that catty fashion diva.... :fluttersmith:
I liked her from minute 1 as well. :vogue:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by CorvusCaw (?) » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:31 am

The Doctor wrote:



I really can't imagine that that Dumbledore (and similar characters like Obi-Won, and Gandalf)) wasn't at least partly an inspiration for Celestia.
That character archetype is as old as dirt in written fiction... probably goes back to Shakespeare or even the Sagas.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Discord » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:50 am

:ohboy: "Celestia is grey and worn,
She's the mental mentor we all hoped for,
She's a gigantic and huge, unicorn alicorn
I hope she doesn't die like Dumbledore!"

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Dexanth (?) » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:44 am

CorpusCavernosum wrote: That character archetype is as old as dirt in written fiction... probably goes back to Shakespeare or even the Sagas.
You can go way way back to find The Mentor. Chiron of Greek myth, for example, is a delightful cross between Dumbledore and Celestia! :pcstare:

The joke is he is a centaur

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Ashenai » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:51 am

Dexanth wrote:You can go way way back to find The Mentor.
An interesting thing about the archetype, though, is that in a coming-of-age story, the Mentor (Grilox please avert your eyes) almost always ends up dying.

I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen here, so it'll be interesting to see how they make Twilight's relationship with Celestia change and evolve. I think we've seen small seeds of these changes already in A Canterlot Wedding. I definitely have faith in these writers, though; whatever they come up with is gonna be awesome! :awesomedash:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by PhoolCat (?) » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:23 am

Obi Wan the Grey wrote:"To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure"
Let's see...
Dumbledore & Ben Kenobi chose the manner/moment of their inevitable death.
Yoda died of old age.
Gandalf didn't die, he went off to the West with Bilbo & Frodo.
Qui-Gon was just a useless pile of robes anyway.

Did I miss anyone?

Celestia would go the Gandalf route, if any - but more likely she's planning on being around for a while longer.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Kraps » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:02 am

She's the ruler and dayman though, who would replace her?

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Doctor (?) » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:13 am

PhoolCat wrote: Let's see...
Dumbledore & Ben Kenobi chose the manner/moment of their inevitable death.
Yoda died of old age.
Gandalf didn't die, he went off to the West with Bilbo & Frodo.
Qui-Gon was just a useless pile of robes anyway.

Did I miss anyone?

Celestia would go the Gandalf route, if any - but more likely she's planning on being around for a while longer.
If you think about it from Frodo's point if view, Gandalf did die, and he never learned the truth until after his quest.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Jupiter » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:25 pm

Kraps wrote:She's the ruler and dayman though, who would replace her?
What do you think she's grooming Twilight for? :gotcha:

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a place of great power."
DJ-PON3
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Adelor Lyon (?) » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:27 pm

Jupiter wrote:What do you think she's grooming Twilight for? :gotcha:
Because she really likes her mane! :ohboy:

Artificer
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Artificer (?) » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:51 pm

Dayman, whooaaaa whoaaaaaaaa, figggggghting against the nightmannnn, whoaaaaaa whoaaaaaaa~

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