The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP:FiM

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:19 pm

Twilight wrote:Excluding Zacura, I thought the concept of race was always shown by pegasi, unicorn, earth instead? Then we have the other 'sub' races that get treated like dirt, such as the sheep and cows. There is also Over a Barrel too.
Yes, but that's in-universe race. :racis: We don't have any context for expecting, say, pegasi to be "sassy" or to have hundreds of years of oppression in their cultural context or anything like that. There isn't any basis for a pegasus' characterization to come from what we, the viewers expect a nameless pegasus to act like.

Caricatures only work when the audience knows what they're caricaturing.


...I feel like I haven't explained this very well. :wat: I'm not trying to say there isn't "race" in Pony. I'm saying that the Mane Six have personalities and characterizations that flow from themselves being themselves, rather than from one of them being "the black one" and one being "the Asian one".

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Red Terra (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:29 pm

The only sassy black character seems to be Sapphire Shores

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:43 pm

Headless Horse wrote:
Yes, but that's in-universe race. :racis: We don't have any context for expecting, say, pegasi to be "sassy" or to have hundreds of years of oppression in their cultural context or anything like that. There isn't any basis for a pegasus' characterization to come from what we, the viewers expect a nameless pegasus to act like.

Caricatures only work when the audience knows what they're caricaturing.


...I feel like I haven't explained this very well. :wat: I'm not trying to say there isn't "race" in Pony. I'm saying that the Mane Six have personalities and characterizations that flow from themselves being themselves, rather than from one of them being "the black one" and one being "the Asian one".
Yeah, you confused me. I didn't know you meant just human race. Well, there is still Over a Barrel, AppleCobbler makes a good point about Sapphire Shores, and Zacura.

I think the show tends to not present much more racial stereotypical characters than the one-offs because most of it is taking place in a medieval Europe setting, which is nearly always depicted as Caucasian only in popular media.

I suppose the only thing I can say about the main cast is that the voice actors chosen and the way they are told to deliver their lines are more based on social structures rather than racial ones. It's hard to depict ponies in a visual manner as belonging to a race, and I feel voice is pretty much the only other method.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Big Boss (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:49 pm

Well, the characters have their own sense of colorblindness. The mane six could be whatever "color" you wanted them to be, if you were to humanize them.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Octavia (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:57 pm

You know what they say about those green ponies :smirk:
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Twilight wrote: I suppose the only thing I can say about the main cast is that the voice actors chosen and the way they are told to deliver their lines are more based on social structures rather than racial ones. It's hard to depict ponies in a visual manner as belonging to a race, and I feel voice is pretty much the only other method.
Right, and what I'm saying is that I think that was intentional. They could easily have, say, cast Sapphire Shores' VA to play Rarity, just to "round out" the cast and make it fit the pattern that most cartoons have in this day and age. But they decided not to go that route, because they wanted the characters to be differentiated a lot more subtly than just from what viewers would derive from stereotypical accents and mannerisms.

I mean, look at how much of Applejack's personality seems to flow from her "country" accent. She's the closest thing to the kind of caricature I'm talking about; and if you took away her "country" mannerisms, a lot of the vividness of her character dissolves.

What I'm trying to say is pretty much the same thing I was saying in this—that the personalities of the Mane Six could easily have been made a lot more one-note than they are, fitting into cookie-cutter personality templates like "the brainy one", "the food-obsessed one", "the jock", and so on; but just as the creators restrained themselves from letting the characters become so pigeonholed by drawing inspiration from the limitations of their similar body designs, they also avoided distinguishing them from one another by having "ethnic" voices. It's just another way in which they refused to use the industry-standard tools for creating distinctive characters and instead came up with their own new ones that happen to work a lot better than the norm.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:07 pm

Headless Horse wrote:
Right, and what I'm saying is that I think that was intentional. They could easily have, say, cast Sapphire Shores' VA to play Rarity, just to "round out" the cast and make it fit the pattern that most cartoons have in this day and age. But they decided not to go that route, because they wanted the characters to be differentiated a lot more subtly than just from what viewers would derive from stereotypical accents and mannerisms.

I mean, look at how much of Applejack's personality seems to flow from her "country" accent. She's the closest thing to the kind of caricature I'm talking about; and if you took away her "country" mannerisms, a lot of the vividness of her character dissolves.

What I'm trying to say is pretty much the same thing I was saying in this—that the personalities of the Mane Six could easily have been made a lot more one-note than they are, fitting into cookie-cutter personality templates like "the brainy one", "the food-obsessed one", "the jock", and so on; but just as the creators restrained themselves from letting the characters become so pigeonholed by drawing inspiration from the limitations of their similar body designs, they also avoided distinguishing them from one another by having "ethnic" voices. It's just another way in which they refused to use the industry-standard tools for creating distinctive characters and instead came up with their own new ones that happen to work a lot better than the norm.
Seems fair enough to me, I don't really disagree with this. I can't say 100% certain that it was their intent when hiring and finding those voice actors, but I think it fits and gives the crew more credit so I'm going to think that.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by PhoolCat (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:48 pm

I'm not keen on humanised ponies, plus the mane six could be any human race you care to name, and would still work fine as is.

But...
:excite: is Arabic
:bluh: is Southern
:fluttersmith: is Nordic
:rainbert: is Italian
:starity: is Eastern European
:-P is either Irish or Mexican
:gotcha: :unenthused: are Elvish

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Yarma (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:02 pm

Lazy wrote:Well, again, complete immortality isn't nessecarily a trait of gods, just like knowing everything isn't. In the end it really just comes down to what you're going to use as a definition.
Therein lies a problem. Twilight has as much ability as a god at this point, especially if things like immortality and omnipotence/omniscience are not part of the equation. This also makes quite a few things gods to earth ponies who do not really have magical ability to move celestial bodies and warp time and space. The same applies to pegasus to a lesser extent.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:04 pm

Yarma wrote:
Therein lies a problem. Twilight has as much ability as a god at this point, especially if things like immortality and omnipotence/omniscience are not part of the equation. This also makes quite a few things gods to earth ponies who do not really have magical ability to move celestial bodies and warp time and space. The same applies to pegasus to a lesser extent.
I agree, Twilight is most certainly indeed a god. :flattered:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Red Terra (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Oh, apparently people still find controversy in the most ridiculous of places. http://www.animationmagazine.net/tv/dis ... ntroversy/

Cliffnotes version:
-A Latino group wants a REAL Latina character since it'll represent them
-The staff behind the show say she's of mixed blood.

And really, I'm behind this mixed blood thing. I see the world in a more global way, past borders or nationalities (man made).
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:16 pm

Yarma wrote:
Therein lies a problem. Twilight has as much ability as a god at this point, especially if things like immortality and omnipotence/omniscience are not part of the equation. This also makes quite a few things gods to earth ponies who do not really have magical ability to move celestial bodies and warp time and space. The same applies to pegasus to a lesser extent.
I don't think you can compare Twilight's power to that of Celestia, Luna, or even Candance at this point. Celestia has been shown shrugging off and dispelling Twilight's most powerful magic like it was nothing, Luna can summon thunderstorms on a whim, and Cadance was able to enhance Shining Armor's shield spell to ridiculous levels.

Also, Twilight is an outlier in terms of ability, so the disparity you see between her and the average earth pony wouldn't exist between an average unicorn and an average earth pony, so no need to single the earth ponies out.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by AlliterativeAxolotl » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:21 pm

One should always consider that Luna and Celestia may have a lot more powers than what we have seen so far, and I'm not talking about powers or magic which would be useful in combat - we have seen that Celestia had trouble fighting against Chrysalis. They could very well have second vision or the ability to use all kinds of magic spells without the need to cast them, something Twilight still has to do if she wants to use magic.

But to be honest, we have almost no information at all about anything, so :v:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Yarma (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:42 pm

Perpetual Lurker wrote:I don't think you can compare Twilight's power to that of Celestia, Luna, or even Candance at this point. Celestia has been shown shrugging off and dispelling Twilight's most powerful magic like it was nothing, Luna can summon thunderstorms on a whim, and Cadance was able to enhance Shining Armor's shield spell to ridiculous levels.

Also, Twilight is an outlier in terms of ability, so the disparity you see between her and the average earth pony wouldn't exist between an average unicorn and an average earth pony, so no need to single the earth ponies out.
Cadence only dissolves lovers spats so I won't count her until I know more about her(another example of using love magic to power up something.), but celestia and luna have been around for at least 1000 years so it makes sense that a pony in her 20's wouldn't be able to compare to them in magical ability. But there is nothing stopping her from getting there.

Regardless if she is an outlier or not(we haven't seen any other unicorns from her magic school.) the fact exists that a unicorn born under regular circumstances to regular unicorn parents is able to manipulate space and time. It is kind of implied that ponies can do this who are not twilight(she was able to read about some of these things in a library.) which would also require them to be a unicorn. Based on these observations I think I can safely say that unicorns are godlike in comparison to the other two races of pony.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:49 pm

Yarma wrote:
Cadence only dissolves lovers spats so I won't count her until I know more about her(another example of using love magic to power up something.), but celestia and luna have been around for at least 1000 years so it makes sense that a pony in her 20's wouldn't be able to compare to them in magical ability. But there is nothing stopping her from getting there.

Regardless if she is an outlier or not(we haven't seen any other unicorns from her magic school.) the fact exists that a unicorn born under regular circumstances to regular unicorn parents is able to manipulate space and time. It is kind of implied that ponies can do this who are not twilight(she was able to read about some of these things in a library.) which would also require them to be a unicorn. Based on these observations I think I can safely say that unicorns are godlike in comparison to the other two races of pony.
Considering that a pegasus can create a magical shockwave powerful enough to demolish buildings, and an earth pony can do heavy manual labor for days on end before finally giving out and pull objects weighing many tons quite easily, I really don't see the disparity in raw potential power as being that great.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:56 pm

Yarma wrote:
Cadence only dissolves lovers spats so I won't count her until I know more about her(another example of using love magic to power up something.), but celestia and luna have been around for at least 1000 years so it makes sense that a pony in her 20's wouldn't be able to compare to them in magical ability. But there is nothing stopping her from getting there.

Regardless if she is an outlier or not(we haven't seen any other unicorns from her magic school.) the fact exists that a unicorn born under regular circumstances to regular unicorn parents is able to manipulate space and time. It is kind of implied that ponies can do this who are not twilight(she was able to read about some of these things in a library.) which would also require them to be a unicorn. Based on these observations I think I can safely say that unicorns are godlike in comparison to the other two races of pony.
I'm just going to go ahead and say (Without my bias that yes, Twilight is amazing) unicorns are indeed the most powerful race. They can manipulate anything they want to match the other ponies. It's completely unequal in terms of ability in the show, but they never play it up nor will they ever in the future.

I also find it funny that any time a magical problem is going to present itself, Twilight could just use her debuff failsafe spell, but she won't because the show creators know it's overpowered.

Perpetual Lurker wrote:
Considering that a pegasus can create a shockwave powerful enough to demolish buildings, and an earth pony can do heavy manual labor for days on end before finally giving out and pull objects weighing many tons quite easily, I really don't see the disparity in raw potential power as being that great.
I disagree. Any unicorn can simply use the most basic spell, telepathy, to stop any other races ability in its tracks. We don't even know the extent of all the magical abilities either, but we are hinted that there is a plethora of time manipulation spells, which generally always lead to broken overpowered situations. It doesn't matter anyways. I could see those feats being accomplished with magic.

When it comes to the brokenness of magic, the show treats it in an infantile manner. We know Twilight can lift an Ursa, water tower, and such. She could have also pulled the diamond dogs out of those holes, but she didn't, because that would ruin the suspense and story. Same with Chrysalis: Lift her into space never to be seen again.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Yarma (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:57 pm

Perpetual Lurker wrote:Considering that a pegasus can create a magical shockwave powerful enough to demolish buildings, and an earth pony can do heavy manual labor for days on end before finally giving out and pull objects weighing many tons quite easily, I really don't see the disparity in raw potential power as being that great.
Compared to the ability to muck around with time? The ability to instantly teleport multiple living targets over a distance with magic? I mean sure cutesy things like breaking the sound barrier while flying, or being physically strong and not getting tired are great. Twilight can move through time with magic enough to talk to herself, and also move living targets across a distance by teleporting them from point A to point B.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by AlliterativeAxolotl » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:00 pm

What if ponies are comparable to Elves in a fantasy setting, or to the inhabitants of Asgard in Norse mythology? The other hooved creatures which are meant to be "people" - cows, mules, sheep - don't seem to have any magical powers; they have no cutie marks or sub-cultures like ponies do. Zebras I'm not so sure about, but I guess Zecora's "cutie mark" is only a tattoo; her magical powers are mundane, too, brewing alchemical potions requires knowledge and intelligence, but no magic abilities.

Ponies are apparently the dominant culture in Equestria, even though there are diamond dogs and other sentient beings around which have societies; maybe it's because all ponies are quite powerful at least in potential. They are in charge of celestial bodies, growing plants and the weather; if they want to, they can do anything. And it's only fitting that these ponies with the greatest magical power are in charge.

Let's look at Tolkien, where we have different elven cultures; the three pony cultures are comparable to that.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Big Boss (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:01 pm

This is a thread about characterization, not the pony race discussion again. Argue about pegasus/earth/whatever elsewhere.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Yarma (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:10 pm

kefkafloyd wrote:This is a thread about characterization, not the pony race discussion again. Argue about pegasus/earth/whatever elsewhere.
It is important to the characters if you define them as gods or not or if celestia is just a rare breed of pony with a special talent to raise the sun or if she is a deity by virtue of the sun raising ability. The pony race relation chat was an unfortunate side effect, but the point still stands that absurd magical ability isn't so rare that a non-alicorn could achieve it.
Ponies are apparently the dominant culture in Equestria, even though there are diamond dogs and other sentient beings around which have societies; maybe it's because all ponies are quite powerful at least in potential. They are in charge of celestial bodies, growing plants and the weather; if they want to, they can do anything. And it's only fitting that these ponies with the greatest magical power are in charge.
I have no doubt that everything else on the planet looks at equines and says "Holy shit man they are controlling weather over there what the fuck?" How do you even compete with pony society? They build their capitol city right into the side of a mountain because they can.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Outlander » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:39 pm

Please, allow me :smug: to segue from race to characterization with something on how race affects character.

The ponies of the show are shown as not being pigeon-holed into roles that are based on their race. Evidence of this exists even within the mane six, i.e. Fluttershy is more of an Earth Pony and Pinkie is more of a Pegasus. Since they were originally written and designed as such, that isn't a very good example, but it still gets the message across. However, being of a certain race DOES preclude (or enable) a pony's ability to even begin a lifestyle. For example, Pinkie Pie can never be a famous baker in Cloudsdale since she is an Earth Pony and therefore can't (permanently) walk on clouds. This actually does affect her as a character, or at least had an effect on the creation of her character.

Anypony who wasn't a unicorn would, presumably, never have the ability to become skilled or even employed as a high-class worker doing jobs related to the fine arts, but then you have examples like our fair fan-favorite Octavia, an Earth Pony, playing Cello (or is it a bass?) at the Grand Galloping Gala, the biggest event in Canterlot (and, presumably Equestria).

[barbossa]In essence, race in this show is more of a guideline or suggestion instead of a rule.[/barbossa] :twiright:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:44 pm

So, here's an interesting question of characterization. This show does a good job on the side characters for the most part, but there's always been one particular character that I'm honestly surprised has been characterized so much. The odd little anomaly of character is Angel Bunny, Fluttershy's pet.

There's just something about they way they utilize him in his short appearances that oozes character, despite the fact that he almost never factors into the plot and he never speaks. Love him or hate him, he's probably the second or third most characterized male character in the entire cast, behind Spike and Big Macintosh. Here's the question, though. Why is he special, from a narrative standpoint? Even among the other pets, he stands out as being exceptionally intelligent, rather caring, and extremely immature. Is he an extension of Fluttershy's character? A foil to her? A plot device to spur her into action? I'm honestly not sure what he is. It's rather fascinating to me, though.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:52 pm

He's the abusive boyfriend.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:59 pm

The Doctor wrote:He's the abusive boyfriend.
He honestly comes off more as a spoiled child to me than anything abusive when he's at his worst. I can practically hear the "But I wanna have this toy! Buy me this one!" style whining coming from him in the beginning of Putting Your Hoof Down. It's just jarring because he acts about as intelligent as any of the ponies, but has the maturity of a five year old.
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Ashenai » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:59 pm

He's Fluttershy' animus :twiright:

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:04 pm

He's there to provide Fluttershy someone to talk to/interact with, because she's a loner who doesn't typically hang around with other ponies. She isn't the type to talk to the camera the way Rarity does; she needs someone like Angel around to bounce off of, otherwise she'd just be silent the whole time.

He also serves as the focal point or "face" of all her animal friends. When Fluttershy talks to Angel, it's like she's talking to all the animals at once. But he gets to embody all their emotions they feel collectively toward her—dependence, affection, reticence, stubbornness, empathy. Caring for wild animals is a delicate balance between being so aloof she can't help them and being in such close contact they become reliant on her; sometimes that balance gets out of hand and has to be corrected through heartbreaking stories like Calvin's Baby Raccoon or The Yearling. Angel is a single-character personification of that weird, wild symbiosis and all its inscrutable, silent facets.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:14 pm

Headless Horse wrote:He's there to provide Fluttershy someone to talk to/interact with, because she's a loner who doesn't typically hang around with other ponies. She isn't the type to talk to the camera the way Rarity does; she needs someone like Angel around to bounce off of, otherwise she'd just be silent the whole time.

He also serves as the focal point or "face" of all her animal friends. When Fluttershy talks to Angel, it's like she's talking to all the animals at once. But he gets to embody all their emotions they feel collectively toward her—dependence, affection, reticence, stubbornness, empathy. Caring for wild animals is a delicate balance between being so aloof she can't help them and being in such close contact they become reliant on her; sometimes that balance gets out of hand and has to be corrected through heartbreaking stories like Calvin's Baby Raccoon or The Yearling. Angel is a single-character personification of that weird, wild symbiosis and all its inscrutable, silent facets.
Don't we find her talking to herself in Stare Master after she puts the fillies to sleep? Also at the beginning of Dragon Shy?

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Outlander » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:44 pm

Twilight wrote:Don't we find her talking to herself in Stare Master after she puts the fillies to sleep? Also at the beginning of Dragon Shy?
In fact, she also talks to the camera through a good portion of A Bird in the Hoof. She manages to be incredibly adorable in these segments, and I'm surprised that the writers don't show this side of her more often. I would argue that, unlike what Headless says, Fluttershy doesn't need Angel in order to be an effective communicator. I would also argue that, like Headless says, he needs to act as a single representation of all of Fluttershy's animal friends to convey her love and respect for them efficiently. Doing a big scene with many animals like in Hurricane Fluttershy, while awesome, is also hard to plan around and takes up a significant amount of time. Angel is an excellent vehicle for expressing one of Fluttershy's major character traits, caring for animals, and making it so they can fit scenes involving her interactions with animals (through Angel) into the limited time frame of the episode.

Basically, Angel allows for gag scenes like in Dragonshy whereas without him that scene would have simply been Fluttershy flying around feeding her animals, or might not have happened at all.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Weird Autumn (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:58 pm

Angel is Fluttershy's mute asshole Jiminy Cricket.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:10 pm

Yeah, being the "face" of the animals is a pretty good explanation of it. It's kinda funny how some real characterization was able to develop out of a simple need to express the characterization of a different character. I honestly think that Angel could carry an episode on his own if one was made for him.

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:19 pm

Perpetual Lurker wrote:Yeah, being the "face" of the animals is a pretty good explanation of it. It's kinda funny how some real characterization was able to develop out of a simple need to express the characterization of a different character. I honestly think that Angel could carry an episode on his own if one was made for him.
I wouldn't mind seeing an episode devoted to all the lesser characters. Donut Joe, Owlicious, Gummy, Angel, Famous Background ponies, Applejack (sorry, had to), ect. could all use an episode. Hearts and Hooves day was basically Cheerilee's and Big Mac's episode, and that was a fun romp. Now just do it again, but replace the CMC with even more lesser characters.

Some of the most fun episodes in television are when they take supporting cast and show everything from their perspective, including sometimes making the main cast look bad. Basically, a 'Lower Deck Episode' in honor of the Star Trek TNG episode I'm thinking of while writing this post "Lower Decks".

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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:32 pm

Twilight wrote:
Don't we find her talking to herself in Stare Master after she puts the fillies to sleep? Also at the beginning of Dragon Shy?
She's talking to Al.

Timber72

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:30 am

The Doctor wrote:
She's talking to Al.
Oooooh, I have no idea why, but this post gave me this idea:

I know a pony that (I think) hasn't been brought up yet! What about the G&PT? Trixie is a fun character. She get's a lot of fan support and I believe she is arguably one of the most likable and interesting ponies when she isn't depicted in the show (as in, I think her fan persona is much more intriguing).

Within the context of the show and what we have seen of Trixie so far, she is quite the jerk. But the question I think that never has been completely answered is, "Is Trixie a jerk because, well, she is just a jerk, or is Trixie acting this way because her showmanship begs for this type of personality?"

Any thoughts?

Gravenstein

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Gravenstein » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:36 am

The Doctor wrote:
She's talking to Al.
:nnngh: Oh, boy.
Last edited by Gravenstein on Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Perpetual Motion
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Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Perpetual Motion (?) » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:56 am

Twilight wrote:
Oooooh, I have no idea why, but this post gave me this idea:

I know a pony that (I think) hasn't been brought up yet! What about the G&PT? Trixie is a fun character. She get's a lot of fan support and I believe she is arguably one of the most likable and interesting ponies when she isn't depicted in the show (as in, I think her fan persona is much more intriguing).

Within the context of the show and what we have seen of Trixie so far, she is quite the jerk. But the question I think that never has been completely answered is, "Is Trixie a jerk because, well, she is just a jerk, or is Trixie acting this way because her showmanship begs for this type of personality?"

Any thoughts?
The way I look at Trixie, I find that things make a lot more sense for her is you zero in on exactly what her talent is. The show explained that unicorns that are generally talented at magic like Trixie and Twilight can cast just about any spell if they manage to learn it. Trixie's talents didn't really come off as general magic, though, otherwise she would have tried something more creative on the Ursa Minor than rehashing a few of her stage tricks.

I feel that her talent is actually performance magic, and if you look at things that way, her behavior makes sense. What do you need for an effective performance? You need an audience, and you need to grab their attention. Big, flashy displays and a lot of bravado is how you would go about doing that. I bet that Trixie really could perform any kind of spell, just like Twilight, but only if she can make a big show of it. She needs to project a powerful persona to get the crowd interested, because crowd interest is what "fuels" her spells, and the more spectacular her spells are, the more the crowd is interested. It's a positive feedback loop. In the end, I'd say that her personality really is like that, because she's a natural performer. Perhaps she might not be as much of a jerk in a casual setting, but she'd still probably strive to be the center of attention. Of course, that's just my own personal theories on her, and if she does ever show up again I'll probably be proven completely wrong.

Timber72

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:31 am

Perpetual Lurker wrote:
The way I look at Trixie, I find that things make a lot more sense for her is you zero in on exactly what her talent is. The show explained that unicorns that are generally talented at magic like Trixie and Twilight can cast just about any spell if they manage to learn it. Trixie's talents didn't really come off as general magic, though, otherwise she would have tried something more creative on the Ursa Minor than rehashing a few of her stage tricks.

I feel that her talent is actually performance magic, and if you look at things that way, her behavior makes sense. What do you need for an effective performance? You need an audience, and you need to grab their attention. Big, flashy displays and a lot of bravado is how you would go about doing that. I bet that Trixie really could perform any kind of spell, just like Twilight, but only if she can make a big show of it. She needs to project a powerful persona to get the crowd interested, because crowd interest is what "fuels" her spells, and the more spectacular her spells are, the more the crowd is interested. It's a positive feedback loop. In the end, I'd say that her personality really is like that, because she's a natural performer. Perhaps she might not be as much of a jerk in a casual setting, but she'd still probably strive to be the center of attention. Of course, that's just my own personal theories on her, and if she does ever show up again I'll probably be proven completely wrong.
I think I agree for the most part. I'd like to add as well: I think that Trixie has been given a slightly cursed cutie mark. Not in the literal sense, but in how it will shape her personality forever. We've seen that she is unfortunately quite the jerk in the after show. She is a bit of a meanie to Snips and Snails. She can't admit her failure and defeat. Overall, she just isn't very nice. She's super charismatic though, and that's admirable.

I hope we get an expansion on her in the future. She also has an amazing voice.

DasNasty

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by DasNasty » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:37 am

Twilight wrote:
Oooooh, I have no idea why, but this post gave me this idea:

I know a pony that (I think) hasn't been brought up yet! What about the G&PT? Trixie is a fun character. She get's a lot of fan support and I believe she is arguably one of the most likable and interesting ponies when she isn't depicted in the show (as in, I think her fan persona is much more intriguing).

Within the context of the show and what we have seen of Trixie so far, she is quite the jerk. But the question I think that never has been completely answered is, "Is Trixie a jerk because, well, she is just a jerk, or is Trixie acting this way because her showmanship begs for this type of personality?"

Any thoughts?
Until she reappears in another episode, the only thing safe to say is that she was an obnoxious braggart who really fell flat when her skills were needed. I feel that a lot of people miss that a) she literally lied about the whole Ursa Major thing and b) she kept up her mean personality OUTSIDE the stage show, as seen by her interaction with Snips and Snails.

She has a very interesting fan character, but unfortunately, that's all it is - fanon. Hopefully, she'll have another episode which develops her character further than "annoying antagonistic braggart," given that this show loves to deepen typical stereotypes seen in kids shows!

Mordja

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Mordja » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:51 am

Twilight wrote:I'd like to add as well: I think that Trixie has been given a slightly cursed cutie mark. Not in the literal sense, but in how it will shape her personality forever.
Cutie marks don't actually have anything to do with personality though, they're a representation of talent. :rariwhat:

Ignoring fanon, the only characterization Trixie has was in her episode, where she was shown to be a vainglourious braggart, and one with absolutely no regrets when her lies nearly destroy a town. Well, a lot of that was Snips' and Snails' fault but...
This doesn't mean she's a bad character; I mean we're still talking about Trixie two years later thanks to her entertainingly arrogant personality, but from what we've seen, she is a bad pony.
E: DasNasty! :applejargh:
Last edited by Mordja on Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

agradify

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by agradify » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:58 am

Twilight wrote: Any thoughts?
I'd be banking towards her still being a braggart when not "in character." Her sole appearance so far doesn't really state whether or not her few jerky moments off stage are how she behaves normally or if it's her keeping up the persona. She seems to look down on Snips and Snails while they worship her and her last moments in Ponyville involve her claiming she's still better than everyone else. Whether or not these instances are genuine or part of the act are up for debate. What tips it for me is her reaction to when she's found out to have lied about previously vanquishing an Ursa Major. While she confesses that she made the story up, she does not tie it to her act. She never goes, "oh, I lied, but only to improve the image of my stage persona and make me fit my Great and Powerful title." She implies that her stage act and how she acted at the moment - i.e. her true nature - are the same thing. So yeah, I see her as obnoxious and a braggart, but that's why we all love her, isn't it?

Timber72

Re: The Importance and Perception of Characterization in MLP

Post by Timber72 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:08 am

Mordja wrote: Cutie marks don't actually have anything to do with personality though, they're a representation of talent. :rariwhat:

Ignoring fanon, the only characterization Trixie has was in her episode, where she was shown to be a vainglourious braggart, and one with absolutely no regrets when her lies nearly destroy a town. Well, a lot of that was Snips' and Snails' fault but...
This doesn't mean she's a bad character; I mean we're still talking about Trixie two years later thanks to her entertainingly arrogant personality, but from what we've seen, she is a bad pony.
E: DasNasty! :applejargh:
It does have bearing though. It may not directly affect her personality, but by representing her talent of showmanship, she has a much higher chance of basically becoming that braggart compared to some pony that has a cutie mark of say, parties. Sure, a party pony could be a jerk, but he/she probably wouldn't be very good at parties since nobody would come.

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